[NFB-Talk] civil disobedience question

Tue Jan 14 23:18:56 UTC 2020

I agree, and when confronted with a wheel chair in the past, I'm pretty sure I politely refused and started walking the direction we needed to go anyway, so they got the message and ditched the chair.

I think employees get flummoxed as well, and come up with a rationale that isn't really true.

Judy

“Embrace each day with His mercies and blessings.”

-----Original Message-----
From: nFB-Talk [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaye Baker via nFB-Talk
Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2020 3:02 PM
To: 'NFB Talk Mailing List'
Cc: Kaye Baker
Subject: Re: [NFB-Talk] civil disobedience question

Today, I had a friend text me. He was getting ready to board a plane in Cleveland OH, and he wanted to know how he should handle a situation he found himself in. He said that when he requested assistance, someone came along with a wheelchair. When he advised her that he could walk and did not need it, she told him that "this is how we do it here, and you have to." Well, anyone who knows me, which I realize a lot of you do not, knows what I would have done. In fact, I'd probably still be in Cleveland (lol), but he's not me, so after an argument, he got in the chair. Sometimes folks, we do it to ourselves. We carry on about how we want to be treated, but when the rubber meets the road, we give in like the children that the world thinks we are. My friend knows I feel this way, so I don't mind posting this. On most things related to blindness, he and I agree to respectfully disagree, and some evenings after a pot of coffee, we debate the topic, but all in all, if we want to "live the lives we want," it has to start with us.

-----Original Message-----
From: nFB-Talk <nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sherry Gomes via nFB-Talk
Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2020 5:17 PM
To: mike at michaelhingson.com; NFB Talk Mailing List <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Sherry Gomes <sherry.gomes at outlook.com>
Subject: Re: [NFB-Talk] civil disobedience question

This thread, talking about self-determination, made me remember an incident in regard to an airline, years ago, where understanding that I could determine I did not want an accommodation made me feel confident and strong and proud. And yet it was a little thing. In 1991, I flew out to visit a dear friend. I was excited. This was when people could still go to the gate to meet arriving passengers, and you could bring more than one carry-on with you. I have other disabilities, and I knew I'd have trouble handling my guide dog and my bags. I thought I'd have to wait to be the last person off, and believe me, I did not want that. Anyway, the couple in my row of seats and I chatted and bought drinks for each other and such. They offered to help me with my bags and to find my friend. So, when the seat belt sign went off, we stood up, got our bags and prepared to head for the jetway. An airline employee stopped me, grabbing me and said something like, "You can't get off now. You have to wait for someone to escort you. We are responsible for you. Sit back down." Well, I don't take that sort of thing very well, and I was no underage minor. So, I said, "I am responsible for myself, I am 34, not a child. and I am getting off now. Take your hands off me." I picked up the harness handle, slung a carry-on over my shoulder, told my dog forward, and we walked off the plane where my friend was waiting. I haven't had anyone tell me I have to wait to get off the plane in years. 

Sherry

-----Original Message-----
From: nFB-Talk <nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Mike Hingson via nFB-Talk
Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2020 3:05 PM
To: 'NFB Talk Mailing List' <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Cc: mike at michaelhingson.com
Subject: Re: [NFB-Talk] civil disobedience question

Sherri,

Yes we must pick our battles. We are treated often like small children and/or unintelligent creatures, but we can keep our canes and the airlines cannot discriminate against us by refusing to board us if we have a guide dog. We cannot, at present, sit in exit rows, but given the progress we have made that is a bit of a small price to pay. I believe that battle too will be won.

The ACAA in general needs to be revamped. This is an ongoing project of the NFB and, again, we shall prevail.

Legally I can sit anywhere on an aircraft with my guide dog except for the exit rows. Airlines often still are unaware of this and sometimes battles ensue. The most important thing to keep in mind in such cases is that FAA/DOT/ACAA regulations are quite clear. We can sit anywhere. We as individuals need to be strong enough to tell airline personnel to show us the federal regulations denying our rights when these discussions arise.

In the past there were several examples of people who delayed flights because of their rights as blind people being denied by airlines. I was dragged of an aircraft in 1980 when  an airline violated its own policies concerning me traveling with a guide dog. Dr. Maurer has a great story about a battle to take his cane on an aircraft. His and my stories took place before the adoption of the Air Carrier Access Act.

Those times were appropriate for some civil disobedience. The NFB is not, contrary to what some have said in this thread, shy about taking our fight to the public when necessary. We also know more about the law than most including many government personnel. Some here have completely misconstrued what the NFB has done and continues to do. Unfortunately, there are all too few of us as opposed to visually centric people who know nothing about blindness. This always makes for the need for a long protracted war which we win one battle at a time. 

Best Regards,

Michael Hingson

-----Original Message-----
From: nFB-Talk On Behalf Of Sherri via nFB-Talk
Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2020 1:43 PM
To: 'NFB Talk Mailing List' <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Sherri <flmom2006 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [NFB-Talk] civil disobedience question

Honestly, I don't know how productive our civil disobedience was, as we lost the battle to sit in the exit row and we are often treated like small children or less when traveling by air.  I guess we must pick our battles.

Sherri

-----Original Message-----
From: nFB-Talk [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mark Tardif via nFB-Talk
Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2020 12:31 PM
To: NFB Talk Mailing List <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Mark Tardif <markspark at roadrunner.com>
Subject: Re: [NFB-Talk] civil disobedience question

Indeed, I remember the airline craziness quite well during the seventies and eighties, there was plenty of productive civil disobedience during that period.

Mark Tardif
Nuclear arms will not hold you.
-----Original Message-----
From: Buddy Brannan via nFB-Talk
Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2020 12:19 AM
To: NFB Talk Mailing List
Cc: Buddy Brannan
Subject: Re: [NFB-Talk] civil disobedience question

Sorry Jack, you’re wrong about Steve, and about the NFB’s stance on the airline issue specifically. Not only was the NFB absolutely in favor of and supported such civil disobedience, which you’d see if you read back through many many issues of the Monitor from the 70’s into as late as the late ’80’s, the NFB put its *full* support behind that. We were absolutely in favor of rolling back the prohibitions against blind people in exit rows. You’re also wrong about the NFB stance on the ADA, which as was correctly pointed out, we supported with the proviso that language was included to allow us to opt out of accommodations if we didn’t feel they were necessary. Let’s not forget about NAC tracking and protests in front of Amazon headquarters, among others. While I agree that there’s a fair bit conservative about the NFB in some ways, that doesn’t tell the whole story. Yes, it’s true that guide dog schools predate the NFB, though not by much more than a decade. 
But a lot has been championed by the NFB, and we’ve been instrumental in many things we take for granted today. State white cane laws, which also protect guide dousers, spring to mind. It wasn’t so long ago that walking while blind was a crime, more or less, because of course we were negligent for just existing.

Now having said all of that, I agree with you that this list is certainly not the only one he should ask. I’m one tha thinks we need a bit more civil disobedience and unrest, because nice isn’t always working so well.

Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
Email: buddy at brannan.name
Mobile: (814) 431-0962

> On Jan 13, 2020, at 1:40 PM, Jack Heim via nFB-Talk 
> <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> wrote:
>
> Steve, you crazy old radical you! Who would have thunk it?
>
> I have to say though, I think if you came on this list and asked for 
> support because you had held up an airline flight by refusing to 
> change seats, you would not get much of it on this list.  Maybe you'd 
> get some because people know you.
>
>
> On 1/13/20 12:11 PM, Steve Jacobson via nFB-Talk wrote:
>> Chris,
>> While participating in civil disobedience is a personal decision, I 
>> do not think one should give it a blanket label as not being appropriate.
>> The action that one takes is going to depend a great deal upon what 
>> progress is being made and the specific issue involved.
>> I was arrested many years ago for refusing to move from a seat in an 
>> exit row on an airplane.  It was most certainly civil disobedience 
>> because I didn't just do what the airline and eventually the police 
>> asked me to do, but from my perspective, there was no law or clear 
>> regulation at the time that required me to move, just the whim of the 
>> airline.  Therefore, I was comfortable with my action.  We were 
>> charged with disorderly conduct since there was no law that fit more 
>> exactly, and a jury found us innocent of those charges.  In that 
>> particular case, whether I was participating in civil disobedience is 
>> somewhat dependent upon one's perspective.
>> In another case, a local amusement park had a regulation that any 
>> blind person had to be accompanied on a number of their rides by a 
>> responsible adult.  The responsible adult was defined as someone who 
>> was sighted and more than a specified height.  There was no age 
>> requirement, and in one case, a nine-year-old daughter was designated 
>> as the responsible adult for her father.  Some of us went to that 
>> amusement park and after waiting our turn, occupied a few cars on one 
>> of the roller-coaster style ride that had such a requirement.  In 
>> that case, I again did not feel that we were likely violating any 
>> actual law, but we were clearly violating the amusement park's rules.
>> I felt the violation was justified, though, and the statement was 
>> worth making.  Our action generated very good news coverage that 
>> would not have occurred without such an action, so it was a useful 
>> tool.  We did eventually ride without being assigned a responsible adult, and the policy was eventually modified.
>> Beyond all of that, though, it is pretty hard for me to be critical 
>> of people who participated in violating laws that had been in place 
>> for a century or more that were unconstitutional.  There are times 
>> when civil disobedience has actually had public support.  Still, I 
>> think the smart thing is always to analyze what will be gained or 
>> lost when planning an activity that includes some form of civil 
>> disobedience, but I really don't think one should rule out civil 
>> disobedience as a valid tool for making changes.  One needs to be 
>> smart about it.  I can't say how I would feel about the actions you 
>> are describing without more specifics, but people sometimes forget 
>> that the Boston Tea Party that is celebrated in our history was 
>> clearly civil disobedience and even involved the destruction of property.
>> Best regards,
>> Steve Jacobson
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nFB-Talk <nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Chris 
>> Westbrook via nFB-Talk
>> Sent: Monday, January 13, 2020 9:10 AM
>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Chris Westbrook <westbchris at gmail.com>
>> Subject: [NFB-Talk] civil disobedience question I'm curious to know 
>> what my fellow NF members think of something. I am on the board of a 
>> local organization here (not NFB or blindness related) and some 
>> people from that organization decided to protest lack of wheelchair 
>> access by totally disrupting the inauguration ceremony for new 
>> politicians, to the point where they were arrested and almost charged 
>> with disorderly conduct etc. As you can imagine this has sparked some 
>> controversy. I don't want to get in to more detail here as I am on 
>> the board and we haven't discussed things yet, but i'm just curious 
>> if anyone feels such militant protests are ever justified? I am 
>> inclined to say no and definitely not in this specific case for other 
>> reasons I won't get into here. This protest was apparently 
>> enabled/aided by ADAPT which seems to be a very in your face 
>> organization that is bad news in my opinion. It seems to me that such 
>> protests can only hurt our cause. I think we must be careful to 
>> always behave with dignity and be the adults in the room so to speak.
>> Curious what you all think.
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