[NFB-Talk] civil disobedience question

Judy Jones sonshines59 at gmail.com
Wed Jan 15 00:04:56 UTC 2020


Yep, same here.

Judy

“Embrace each day with His mercies and blessings.”

-----Original Message-----
From: nFB-Talk [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hingson via nFB-Talk
Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2020 3:54 PM
To: 'NFB Talk Mailing List'
Cc: mike at michaelhingson.com
Subject: Re: [NFB-Talk] civil disobedience question

Mark,

I'm with you. I refuse to take a wheelchair at the airport. Also, when people insist that I not take escalators and wheelchairs one response I give is that "I would rather you save those things for people who need them". "I walk as you can see and taking the elevator or wheelchair can, in fact, slow us down." I simply do not except, although I have been confronted with it, the statement "this is the way we do it here". My response is simply "no it is not". 


Best Regards,


Michael Hingson

-----Original Message-----
From: nFB-Talk On Behalf Of Mark Tardif via nFB-Talk
Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2020 3:42 PM
To: NFB Talk Mailing List <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Mark Tardif <markspark at roadrunner.com>
Subject: Re: [NFB-Talk] civil disobedience question

I never experienced the exit row situation, but I have experienced being told I needed to sit in a wheelchair.  I can't tell you how many times I refused to take the wheelchair, and usually enough persistence actually payed off.



Mark Tardif
Nuclear arms will not hold you.
-----Original Message-----
From: Sherri Brun via nFB-Talk
Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2020 6:36 PM
To: 'NFB Talk Mailing List'
Cc: flmom2006 at gmail.com
Subject: Re: [NFB-Talk] civil disobedience question

I had opportunities to protest the exit row situation and I chose not to do it.  I did, however, refuse to be saqt in a bulkhead seat with my guide dog. 
I also have most of the  time refused to take a wheelchair in the air port.
Sherri
-----Original Message-----
From: nFB-Talk <nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Mark Tardif via nFB-Talk
Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2020 6:09 PM
To: NFB Talk Mailing List <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Mark Tardif <markspark at roadrunner.com>
Subject: Re: [NFB-Talk] civil disobedience question

Well, as I think about it, you have a good point, Sherri.  We won't win all the battles, I'm afraid.  So we do have to pick our battles, we have to determine what's more important and what's something that can be put on the back burner for the time being.  And, whether we like it or not, there are going to be people who, for whatever reasons, are simply not up to this kind of confrontation that civil disobedience implies.  And we certainly shouldn't be hard on them, not everyone can realistically be expected to do this.



Mark Tardif
Nuclear arms will not hold you.
-----Original Message-----
From: Sherri via nFB-Talk
Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2020 4:43 PM
To: 'NFB Talk Mailing List'
Cc: Sherri
Subject: Re: [NFB-Talk] civil disobedience question

Honestly, I don't know how productive our civil disobedience was, as we lost the battle to sit in the exit row and we are often treated like small children or less when traveling by air.  I guess we must pick our battles.

Sherri

-----Original Message-----
From: nFB-Talk [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mark Tardif via nFB-Talk
Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2020 12:31 PM
To: NFB Talk Mailing List <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Mark Tardif <markspark at roadrunner.com>
Subject: Re: [NFB-Talk] civil disobedience question

Indeed, I remember the airline craziness quite well during the seventies and eighties, there was plenty of productive civil disobedience during that period.



Mark Tardif
Nuclear arms will not hold you.
-----Original Message-----
From: Buddy Brannan via nFB-Talk
Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2020 12:19 AM
To: NFB Talk Mailing List
Cc: Buddy Brannan
Subject: Re: [NFB-Talk] civil disobedience question

Sorry Jack, you’re wrong about Steve, and about the NFB’s stance on the airline issue specifically. Not only was the NFB absolutely in favor of and supported such civil disobedience, which you’d see if you read back through many many issues of the Monitor from the 70’s into as late as the late ’80’s, the NFB put its *full* support behind that. We were absolutely in favor of rolling back the prohibitions against blind people in exit rows. You’re also wrong about the NFB stance on the ADA, which as was correctly pointed out, we supported with the proviso that language was included to allow us to opt out of accommodations if we didn’t feel they were necessary. Let’s not forget about NAC tracking and protests in front of Amazon headquarters, among others. While I agree that there’s a fair bit conservative about the NFB in some ways, that doesn’t tell the whole story. Yes, it’s true that guide dog schools predate the NFB, though not by much more than a decade.
But a lot has been championed by the NFB, and we’ve been instrumental in many things we take for granted today. State white cane laws, which also protect guide dousers, spring to mind. It wasn’t so long ago that walking while blind was a crime, more or less, because of course we were negligent for just existing.

Now having said all of that, I agree with you that this list is certainly not the only one he should ask. I’m one tha thinks we need a bit more civil disobedience and unrest, because nice isn’t always working so well.


Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
Email: buddy at brannan.name
Mobile: (814) 431-0962



> On Jan 13, 2020, at 1:40 PM, Jack Heim via nFB-Talk 
> <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> wrote:
>
> Steve, you crazy old radical you! Who would have thunk it?
>
> I have to say though, I think if you came on this list and asked for 
> support because you had held up an airline flight by refusing to 
> change seats, you would not get much of it on this list.  Maybe you'd 
> get some because people know you.
>
>
> On 1/13/20 12:11 PM, Steve Jacobson via nFB-Talk wrote:
>> Chris,
>> While participating in civil disobedience is a personal decision, I 
>> do not think one should give it a blanket label as not being appropriate.
>> The action that one takes is going to depend a great deal upon what 
>> progress is being made and the specific issue involved.
>> I was arrested many years ago for refusing to move from a seat in an 
>> exit row on an airplane.  It was most certainly civil disobedience 
>> because I didn't just do what the airline and eventually the police 
>> asked me to do, but from my perspective, there was no law or clear 
>> regulation at the time that required me to move, just the whim of the 
>> airline.  Therefore, I was comfortable with my action.  We were 
>> charged with disorderly conduct since there was no law that fit more 
>> exactly, and a jury found us innocent of those charges.  In that 
>> particular case, whether I was participating in civil disobedience is 
>> somewhat dependent upon one's perspective.
>> In another case, a local amusement park had a regulation that any 
>> blind person had to be accompanied on a number of their rides by a 
>> responsible adult.  The responsible adult was defined as someone who 
>> was sighted and more than a specified height.  There was no age 
>> requirement, and in one case, a nine-year-old daughter was designated 
>> as the responsible adult for her father.  Some of us went to that 
>> amusement park and after waiting our turn, occupied a few cars on one 
>> of the roller-coaster style ride that had such a requirement.  In 
>> that case, I again did not feel that we were likely violating any 
>> actual law, but we were clearly violating the amusement park's rules.
>> I felt the violation was justified, though, and the statement was 
>> worth making.  Our action generated very good news coverage that 
>> would not have occurred without such an action, so it was a useful 
>> tool.  We did eventually ride without being assigned a responsible 
>> adult, and the policy was eventually modified.
>> Beyond all of that, though, it is pretty hard for me to be critical 
>> of people who participated in violating laws that had been in place 
>> for a century or more that were unconstitutional.  There are times 
>> when civil disobedience has actually had public support.  Still, I 
>> think the smart thing is always to analyze what will be gained or 
>> lost when planning an activity that includes some form of civil 
>> disobedience, but I really don't think one should rule out civil 
>> disobedience as a valid tool for making changes.  One needs to be 
>> smart about it.  I can't say how I would feel about the actions you 
>> are describing without more specifics, but people sometimes forget 
>> that the Boston Tea Party that is celebrated in our history was 
>> clearly civil disobedience and even involved the destruction of property.
>> Best regards,
>> Steve Jacobson
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nFB-Talk <nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Chris 
>> Westbrook via nFB-Talk
>> Sent: Monday, January 13, 2020 9:10 AM
>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Chris Westbrook <westbchris at gmail.com>
>> Subject: [NFB-Talk] civil disobedience question I'm curious to know 
>> what my fellow NF members think of something. I am on the board of a 
>> local organization here (not NFB or blindness related) and some 
>> people from that organization decided to protest lack of wheelchair 
>> access by totally disrupting the inauguration ceremony for new 
>> politicians, to the point where they were arrested and almost charged 
>> with disorderly conduct etc. As you can imagine this has sparked some 
>> controversy. I don't want to get in to more detail here as I am on 
>> the board and we haven't discussed things yet, but i'm just curious 
>> if anyone feels such militant protests are ever justified? I am 
>> inclined to say no and definitely not in this specific case for other 
>> reasons I won't get into here. This protest was apparently 
>> enabled/aided by ADAPT which seems to be a very in your face 
>> organization that is bad news in my opinion. It seems to me that such 
>> protests can only hurt our cause. I think we must be careful to 
>> always behave with dignity and be the adults in the room so to speak.
>> Curious what you all think.
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