[nfbcs] Programming with a Braille display

Wed Nov 16 17:33:58 UTC 2011

Well, I wouldn't recommend moving away from the linux GUI.  Just understand 
that its not quite up to the standards set by jaws. It may be close to that 
set by other free screen readers like voiceOver and nvda.

I do not use emacs or emacspeak. I use vi when in the CLI and gedit when in 
the GUI.

The one thing I wanted to get across is that I got the impression that some 
people are still thinking of linux as an novelty. In fact, linux is a real 
operating system. The University of Wisconsin has run its web servers on 
linux for about 10 years already. VMWare ESX and ESXI are linux forks. For 
server purposes, linux is far ahead of Microsoft products. So when someone 
says, "You get what you pay for" regarding linux, its just not accurate. 
Linux costs nothing, but its not nothing.

I have a dream of starting a company to compete with Freedom Scientific 
selling linux based accessibility equipment. I'm never going to do it 
because I have too good of a job to give up and start over at my age. But I 
do think there is an opportunity there.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tami Kinney" <tamara.8024 at comcast.net>
To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 11:02 PM
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Programming with a Braille display

> John,
>
> Cool! I'm using Ubuntu 11.04, with Orca/Speech Dispatcher/eSpeak. And I'm 
> still using the GUI, although my goal is to move away from that. I'm 
> working while learning, so haring off on new adventures is still in the 
> future. Mostly. /smile/
>
> Could you tell me more about SpeakUP?
>
> Also, do you use Emacs, and is it accessible with SpeakUp? Or is that 
> Speex... I'm really interested in using Emacs for a lot of des/dev tasks, 
> but it wasn't accessible in Orca in Ubuntu 11.04. There have been some 
> accessibilit upgrades in a lot of things with the Ubuntu 11.10 release, 
> and also a lot of things that have had to be fixed, some still pending. 
> Ingteresting times for a newbie. Or even the oldies, I guess. /smile/ I 
> love the freedom of the open source world I've finally gotten back to, but 
> it's a wild place with lions and tigers and bears, oh my. /grin/ 
> Especially if you need accessibility. In some ways, it's absolutely great. 
> In others... Interesting. /smile/
>
> I was stuck for too many years with JAWS 7.0 so can't make a reasonable 
> comparison with Orca. Except that I don't have to get stuck with an old 
> version because of the price of upgrade in tough times... Or expecially 
> the price of a new license when the tough times draw on too long. To me, 
> free is freedom! /lol/
>
> One thing I will say that I hated in JAWS that I love in Orca: Forms! Much 
> friendlier in Orca. Whew! /smile/
>
> Tami
>
> On 11/13/2011 06:44 PM, John G. Heim wrote:
>> Well, given the way you put it, getting what you pay for, then linux is
>> one heck of a bargain. I'm not saying the screen reader for the linux
>> graphical user interface, orca, is as good as jaws. But for free, it is
>> pretty darn good. I use it all the time, every day.
>>
>> The screen reader for the character user interface, speakup, is even
>> better. In fact, I would say that speakup is the best screen reader out
>> there. It it rock solid and does everything you need. Of course, its
>> probably easier to write a screen reader for character mode than for a
>> GUI. But speakup has been included on the debian linux installation disk
>> for years so if you had a hardware speech synth, you could get a talking
>> install. The newest version of the debian linux installation CD has
>> software speech so you don't even need a hardware synth. When do you
>> think Microsoft will be coming up with a talking installation disk for
>> Windows? Don't hold your breath.
>>
>> n Nov 13, 2011, at 2:11 PM, Mike Jolls wrote:
>>
>>> Mike:
>>>
>>> As I say, I have Ubuntu loaded on a laptop. I'm going to try and spend
>>> some
>>> time checking it out to see how good it is.
>>>
>>> Yes, I would in general agree that you get what you pay for. I recall
>>> once
>>> I purchased a program (I think it was $20) which was supposed to write
>>> code
>>> for you and save you time in programming. Well, it did write code, but
>>> the
>>> program it wrote was such that it was a shell of a shell of a shell. In
>>> other words, it only wrote enough code to say .. "see, I wrote you a 
>>> very
>>> small program ... now you do the remaining 95% of the work". So, yeah, I
>>> hear you. I'm hoping the Ubuntu is different. I could be wrong as you
>>> say.
>>> If I am, at least I'm not out any money.
>>>
>>> Thanks for responding
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Mike Freeman
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2011 9:56 AM
>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Programming with a Braille display
>>>
>>> Mike:
>>>
>>> I'm sure Curtis Willoughby would agree with you. I certainly like
>>> Linux from
>>> a console. But the realist in me says that you get the sort of support
>>> you
>>> pay for. Hence, since Ubuntu is free, you get just about that amount of
>>> support guaranteed.
>>>
>>> Even in noncapatlist societies, Robert Heinline's dictum holds sway:
>>> TANSTAAFL -- There Ain't No such thing As A Free Lunch!
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Mike Jolls
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2011 3:58 AM
>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Programming with a Braille display
>>>
>>> I would have to agree with your statement that prices for adaptive
>>> technology will likely never go down because we are such a small market.
>>> That is, if you're looking at it from a profit/cost perspective. We
>>> do, of
>>> course, live in a capitalistic society and that keeps the prices high.
>>> Now,
>>> if someone comes along and develops something because it's something
>>> blind
>>> people need and they aren't concerned so much about making a profit
>>> ... but
>>> rather helping the blind community ... then we might have a chance at
>>> getting products that aren't so costly.
>>>
>>> Take, for example, the Ubuntu (Linux - I think it's Orca) operating
>>> system
>>> that has the screen reader and magnification built right in. The O/S is
>>> free. It's not like Windows where you have adaptive products such as
>>> ZoomText ($500) and Jaws ($1000) that run on top of the O/S and you
>>> have to
>>> buy these products separately to run with the O/S. Someone got the idea
>>> that blind people ought to be able to "see" for free, just like normally
>>> sighted people can. So there are people out there that are generous who
>>> aren't just purely interested in making a profit but would be willing to
>>> provide products just because they are needed. Imagine what life would 
>>> be
>>> like if Louis Braille had said ... "Gee, I'll come up with Braille but
>>> only
>>> if I make a profit". Where would we be then?
>>>
>>> By the way, I know nothing about Ubuntu/Linux yet, but am on a discovery
>>> quest to see how viable that O/S is. I have a laptop with Orca installed
>>> and I want to see how many applications have been developed for that 
>>> O/S.
>>> Perhaps we have something here that could be a replacement for Windows.
>>> Perhaps we have, in Ubuntu, a way that rehab organizations can provide
>>> computers to blind people at a lower cost.
>>>
>>> So, I think it's possible that technology may not always be price
>>> prohibitive. We just have to find the right people that are 
>>> philanthropic
>>> and more interested in getting the technology produced because it
>>> needs to
>>> be done.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Mike Freeman
>>> Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 10:34 PM
>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Programming with a Braille display
>>>
>>> When I first began to write for computers -- first in FORTRAN and then
>>> in an
>>> assembler -- I, too, did not have speech. We used punch cards for
>>> input (and
>>> occasionally I used the console typewriter which was an IBM Selectric)
>>> and I
>>> either had someone read my output or, later on, I and a couple of
>>> other guys
>>> discovered that the console lights would make an FM radio make noises as
>>> they operated and if you programmed right, you could get tones so we did
>>> some more programming using typewriter interrupts as counters and got 
>>> the
>>> thing to send Morse code thru the radio and I got my output that way.
>>>
>>> Those were the days.
>>>
>>> I'm afraid, though, that I'm going to have to disappoint Tami by
>>> saying that
>>> the cost of adaptive tech will never go down very much -- at least for
>>> sophisticated adaptive tech such as screen-readers -- because there
>>> are too
>>> few of us to really bring economies of scale to the creation process.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Doug Lee
>>> Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 7:50 PM
>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Programming with a Braille display
>>>
>>> Wow. I had occasion to write machine code in hex without an assembler,
>>> but
>>> at least I had speech. 1983, that was...
>>>
>>> On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 09:44:50PM -0600, David Andrews wrote:
>>> Tami:
>>>
>>> Most of us don't have a clue as to how far things have come. Chuck
>>> Hallenbeck told me that when he started using computers in the early
>>> 1970's,
>>> he first had to write an assembler program with out speech or any kind 
>>> of
>>> assistive technology, and once that was done, he had to use the
>>> assembler to
>>> write a program to make the computer talk -- in its crude way.
>>>
>>> The first computer I saw, that was semi-accessible, had to be taught
>>> how to
>>> pronounce each and every word, or it would spell. Chuck and I of course
>>> taught it how to say "beer."
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>> At 08:52 AM 11/9/2011, you wrote:
>>>> Heavens! No one can accuse you of not being dedicated.
>>>>
>>>> The more war stories I hear from those like you who did all the heavy
>>>> duty ground breaking back in the day when assistive technology didn't
>>>> really exist,, the more I realize how easy we have it now.
>>>> The tech still lags, but it is there and gaining ground. The price of
>>>> the really good stuff is still a barrier in the face of recalcitrant
>>>> agencies and schools, but it is now possible for us non-print readers
>>>> to compete much more fully with our sighted peers than even just a
>>>> handful of years ago. There are more options available, too,. The cost
>>>> barrier is still pretty daunting, but...
>>>> Sooner or later that is going to have to change. The more students and
>>>> professionals who push through those remaining barriers, the closer we
>>>> come to freer access to those technical wonders we need to compete and
>>>> excel and still have time left over to sleep now and then. /smile/ The
>>>> dramatic increase in efficiency is a real difference-maker in the
>>>> competitive arena. So, then, the greater competitiveness of every
>>>> single individual who uses it in school and work and daily life will go
>>>> a long way at chipping through those ridiculous low expectations people
>>>> still insist on laying on us.
>>>> Wider access to communications technology and social media will, I
>>>> think, have a growing impact on the low expectations some accept from
>>>> hearing them every time they attempt to get resources, too.
>>>> Well, that is a hope of mine, anyway. /smile/
>>>>
>>>> Tami
>>>>
>>>> e
>>>>
>>>> On 11/08/2011 12:54 PM, Doug Lee wrote:
>>>>> I have done programming via just speech for most of 20 years, but I
>>>>> find Braille displays very helpful for a few tasks. Mostly, they speed
>>>>> up the process of tracing indent levels, as has already been
>>>>> mentioned.
>>>>>
>>>>> To be fair, I should say that perhaps the reason I use speech almost
>>>>> to the exclusion of Braille is that, when I started out in
>>>>> programming, it was my only realistic choice. I used to braille
>>>>> program listings onto paper with Braille printers, but that's so much
>>>>> slower than a modern Braille display even now. I seem to recall
>>>>> spending a good afternoon Brailling out the entire TexTalker.blind
>>>>> speech program in Assembly language on an Apple once, to the tune of
>>>>> about 60 pages I think, using a Cranmer modified Perkins Brailler,
>>>>> which probably put out less than seven lines a minute and required
>>>>> manual loading of each page... but we're way past all that now.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Nov 08, 2011 at 12:35:38PM -0800, Tami Kinney wrote:
>>>>> Aaron,
>>>>>
>>>>> I've been dragging my feet getting back into programming because I
>>>>> haven't managed to get a braille display, and trying to get started
>>>>> again using speech only makes me crazy. Also, Hearing code read to me
>>>>> sounds like incomprehensible gibberish. I'm starting to just suck it
>>>>> up and set aside time regularly to practice listening to code and path
>>>>> names for linux config files or terminal commands, but... It's coming
>>>>> slowly for me.
>>>>>
>>>>> My own queries around and about indicate that most professional
>>>>> programmers find the 80-cell display to be their best option. My
>>>>> former employer was prepared to purchase one for me when I was losing
>>>>> the ability to read print, only we needed the VR agency to get someone
>>>>> out for an onsite evaluation and more information about the technical
>>>>> details, so... I hope they found someone good to do that job when I
>>>>> had to give it up because I couldn't read and the agency still
>>>>> couldn't get anyone out there. Sigh. The price of an 80-cell then, as
>>>>> now, is around $10k.
>>>>>
>>>>> A 40-cell is around $5k, although I guess the Focus is only $4k these
>>>>> days... There are rumors that prices will start to come down soon, so
>>>>> I'm waiting for that with bated breath.
>>>>>
>>>>> You're the third person I've ever heard of who does programming with
>>>>> speech only. /smile/ So I'm sure there must be others. You've bummed
>>>>> me out because if other people can program with speech only, then I
>>>>> don't have any excuse to put off learning to do that myself, do i?
>>>>> /grin/
>>>>>
>>>>> I would say you're dead on about efficiency. I can only guess for
>>>>> myself, but there do seem to be a lot of little tasks or bits of tasks
>>>>> that involve squirrelling around with the screen reader that people
>>>>> who use braille just read with their fingers... My assumptions on my
>>>>> expectations for improved efficiency are also based on the simple fact
>>>>> that even as a pretty new braille reader, I recall waht I read through
>>>>> my fingers much more accurately and clearly than I do what I hear read
>>>>> to me... I'm getting better due to experience but ... That's not
>>>>> saying much. /smile/ Proofing is also more time consuming and also
>>>>> fatiguing for me. That could be mostly just me and how I respond
>>>>> conceptually to the spoken word as opposed to the read word... My
>>>>> fingers do a much better job for me at replacing my eyeballs than do
>>>>> my ears.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know if that is helpful, but I thought I would throw it out
>>>>> since I'm in a similar place.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm looking forward to hearing what everyone else has to say. /smile/
>>>>>
>>>>> Tami
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/08/2011 06:46 AM, Aaron Cannon wrote:
>>>>>> Hi all.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm wondering how many programmers use a braille display? I have
>>>>>> been programming for the past several years, but I've never tried to
>>>>>> use a braille display. Do you feel that it makes you more efficient?
>>>>>> If so, how exactly?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I assume the larger the display, the better?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any advice would be appreciated. Anything I can do to make myself
>>>>>> more efficient is great.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Aaron
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nfbcs:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/dgl%40dlee.org
>>>
>>> --
>>> Doug Lee dgl at dlee.org http://www.dlee.org
>>> SSB BART Group doug.lee at ssbbartgroup.com
>>> http://www.ssbbartgroup.com
>>> "Sometimes I think my learning curve is a circle." -- David Andrews
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nfbcs:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nfbcs:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/majolls%40cox.net
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nfbcs:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nfbcs:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/majolls%40cox.net
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nfbcs:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/jheim%40math.wisc.edu
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nfbcs mailing list
>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nfbcs:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/tamara.8024%40comcast.net
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nfbcs mailing list
> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nfbcs:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/jheim%40math.wisc.edu
>
> 