[nfbcs] Math software
Mike Jolls
majolls at cox.net
Tue Apr 9 10:53:08 UTC 2013
I'll reply to Mike's last reply and add some comments in general.
Let me expand the thread a bit and say that my question as to whether
software would be useful was more than just a question. You see, after I
spoke with these kids at our chapter meeting, and came up with my idea of
the teacher/student interaction aspect of the software, I started to
investigate writing a "math expression solver" engine. The math expression
solver is fundamental to the success of such a system (i.e. the ability to
simplify a sub-part of an overall problem so you can re-write the problem in
steps in order to show the problem solution to the student). What I'm
proposing won't be possible without this engine, so I began working on it.
I was able to find some advanced computer science texts which laid out how
simple calculator logic was programmed, and I began to work on such a
project. As I said in earlier posts, the project is not easy, but it is
possible. The project is definitely in its infancy, but what I have right
now is a project that ... given an expression such as (3*(5+2)) ... can
solve that expression. This is just the very very very beginning. If any
of you have had upper level math, you know what I'm talking about. There
are variables to deal with, functions, many other topics. But before I went
too far, I wanted to see if it was even worthwhile pursuing such a topic.
After all, if people are so entrenched in the current system that they are
totally inflexible, well it might not be worth all the effort such a project
will demand. And it WILL demand work. No question there. But I believe I
see that this is possible ... after all ... look at Mathematica. There is a
package that does many complex mathematical tasks. So I think that what I'm
putting forth here is doable. But it will take a significant amount of
work. After all, some people said we'd never go to the moon, yet we did
with work and effort.
The point is well made that conversion of Braille to print and back will not
be easy. However, assuming that Nemeth Braille is used for the
representation of mathematical statements, I have to believe there is a way
to perform these conversions. From what I've read, Mr. Nemeth was able to
develop a system by which he could represent any mathematical problem in
Braille. We already know that in print you can do that. We have hundreds
of years of experience there. I have to believe again that bridging the gap
and translating is possible. The work will likely be difficult. I have
seen many complex sets of data represented in computer code over my 35 years
of professional work, so I think this can be done, but it won't be easy.
The suggestion to look in the "non-commercial" groups to see what problems
have already been solved is a good one so I don't reinvent the wheel.
I can recall many times over the years ... before there was all of this
accessibility and accomodation ... back in the 1970's (yes I know the stone
age) that I had teachers who didn't want to be bothered by my problem of low
vision. Even though you told them .. "I need help" ... they just sort of
had the attitude that you had to make out the best you could, figure things
out for yourself, and then let your level of achievement fall where it may.
I think college was the worst because the teachers had their own agendas and
back then, you didn't have all the awareness you do today. There were a few
professors who saw the potential and went the extra mile, but I found that
more the exception than the rule. You were basically on your own. I've
seen that attitude professionally as well too many times. In other words,
sink or swim, but you're on your own to rise to the level you're capable of.
Some instructors will work with you, read you the problems, etc. A lot (in
my experience anyway) won't. When you can't depend on the teachers to help
you, you have to be able to do it yourself. I saw this project as being the
student's ability to overcome those issues to some extent. I saw it as the
ability for the student who wanted to do well to be able to independently
study the math. Also, to communicate with the teacher in their language
(i.e. non-Braille) so that those teachers that weren't really interested in,
or didn't have the time to learn Braille, wouldn't have to. The lack of
interest by the teacher wouldn't kill the students ability to keep up. That
way, if the student didn't have access to a Braille instructor or helper for
a period of time, they could fall back to what I'm proposing and still
survive. The student could work the problems, have Braille support if they
needed it through the software, and then send it back to the teacher in
print so that the teacher could simply treat the student as any other
student. Such a system, I believe would give the student a level of
independence that would help them succeed.
I remember when I was in college taking math. I couldn't see the board. I
couldn't see what the teacher was writing. Back in the 70's, there weren't
a lot of accessible aids like there are today. Today I have a telescope
mounted in a pair of glasses that helps me tremendously deal with reading
the board. I can actually sit halfway back in the room and see what's on
the board. I sure couldn't do that 40 years ago. In high school, I zoned
out because I couldn't see what was going on. It wasn't until college that
I realized that I could level the playing field if I read the books on my
own, took the responsibility upon myself to read the book and do the
problems, and educate myself so that when I went to class I knew what I
didn't understand and could ask intelligent questions. When I did that, I
started getting A's in math. I got A's with that approach up through
Calculus and Diff. Eq. When I heard that blind students were struggling
with math, I realized that they needed a method to be able to independently
study the topics when their classroom experience was falling short so they
could do what I did. I was hoping this project could help give them a tool
they could use to do what I'm talking about.
And that's why I posted the question. Would people see value in such a
project? Would it be worth working on? Even though it has been a lot of
work just doing what I've done so far, it might be worth it if it could help
alleviate a student's frustration and help them to succeed.
Anyway, that's my motivation. I've said too much.
Comments welcome.
-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike Freeman
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 4:21 PM
To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Math software
tami:
I am not nearly as sanguine as you are regarding the promise of software to
facilitate translation of braille math into print unambiguously or provide
an easy means of rendering math by blind students intelligible to the
sighted except in simple cases because, whether we wish to admit it or not,
there is considerable variability in the way math is written in print and
also because braille, no matter which code is used, has no foolproof means
of rendering arbitrary math symbols into print. It is easier going the other
way but judgment is still often required.
I am glad the projects you cite are underway but I think it'll be a tougher
nut to crack than many believe.
Mike Freeman
sent from my iPhone
On Apr 8, 2013, at 13:55, Tami Jarvis <tami at poodlemutt.com> wrote:
> Mike,
>
> Mulling this one over, I tend to agree with you about the importance of
access to texts and other learning materials, as well as the ability to
produce homework independently. I see many of the points others have raised
about the system in which the problems students are facing exist, and we
need to keep chipping away at those issues, too. But independent access to
the materials can go a long, long way in getting around negative attitudes
and failures of the system. Software can go an awfully long way towards
making that independent access possible!
>
> As for software, there are some really good projects under active
development for math/science accessibility, including liblouis,
BrailleBlaster, Infty and others. Some are braille intensive, while others
focus on audio access. I think there is a place for both, although I
strongly prefer braille myself.
>
> I see these projects as promising ways to open up math and science to a
broader range of students and even just us older folks who want to play with
math cuz that's how we are. It's becoming more and more possible to just
scan a text and be able to read it in either braille or audio! Or to produce
mathematic and scientific notation in documents without having to learn
LaTex and whatever else first. Add tactile graphics, and a blind student has
a fighting chance to learn and even to be competitive and still have time to
eat and sleep...
>
> The open source projects also take a big bite out of the cost involved in
math/science access... That still leaves the cost of the hardware, which is
not at all cheap. However... Compared to the cost of transcribing and
embossing a single paper braille text, it can start looking downright cost
effective!
>
> I'm not aware of anything like the interactive learning components you
mention being available at the k12 level... Which doesn't mean much, since
that is off my radar. We do have parents of blind students on the blind math
list wanting to learn how to assist their children, and I think some
educators at that level who discuss the issues there. I find it interesting
but honestly haven't paid huge attention to the ins and outs.
>
> Will software solve the problems with the school system? Nope! But if
students can get their hands on access to the learning materials and be able
to produce homework without having to rely on the system, then that's a help
for those who wish to learn and compete -- even excel -- anyway.
>
> Will software change the negative attitudes behind the problems with the
education system? No, but those students who compete and excel will
eventually become convincing. When I was that young, everyone knew women
weren't fit for math or the sciences, after all. Now? Why wouldn't a woman
be good at that? Why would anyone have thought otherwise? So as blind
students and blind professionals become more competitive, it will become
obvious that a blind person can be competitive. Not tomorrow, but in time.
>
> Of course, we're also facing overall cultural attitudes towards education
in general and expecially math and science. Layer that over the additional
attitudes towards blindness and the access issues that blind students face,
and I think that anything at all that can enable any young person to learn
in those fields is gold. Yes, we need to keep fighting on all fronts for the
education system to work to educate and to do what is needed to educate
blind students. Meanwhile, a lot of students are on their own -- or their
parents are. If they don't have to wait on the system to provide the basic
learning materials, that's one less way they can be held up by it.
>
> And, yes, software can bridge that barrier.
>
> Tami
>
>
>
>
> On 04/08/2013 09:09 AM, majolls at cox.net wrote:
>> I see I'm getting a LOT of push-back on this topic. My whole thrust to
this topic was to think about putting the power in the student's hand to the
extent possible, rather than making the student wait on others to assist.
>>
>> I'm not up on the rules and regs regarding what the schools are supposed
to do by law (i..e provide large print books, Braille resources). But that
much I figured ... yes accomodations have to be made. But what does a
student do if they have to wait for these resources? They could fall
behind. And what happens if a student does Braille, but the teacher doesn't
... and there aren't enough trained Braille instructors in a district to go
around? I've heard that's a problem because districts are trying to cut
costs and eliminate specialized schools that teach blind students. So if
that's the case, who knows how many qualified teachers for the blind there
will be? Maybe not enough? I don't know.
>>
>> The software I was thinking about would give the student and teacher
tools to communicate ... without the teacher having to know Braille (if it
was a requirement for the student). The student could do the assignments,
use a Braille device if needed, then have the software translate back to
regular text for the teacher. The Braille instructor wouldn't be obsolete,
but if there ever was a time where one was unavailable, the student could
perhaps still do the work and the software could back-translate the work to
the form the regular teacher could handle if they didn't know Braille (which
I have heard is case sometimes).
>>
>> The student could also get help from the software to work through the
problems. So if they didn't know how to solve a problem, having the
"solution solver" would be helpful so they could ... hopefully ...
independently do the homework. And this software could ... if designed
correctly .. allow the teacher to design tests, quizzes, etc. The teacher
simply composes, saves, and the student accesses the material on his or her
own terms. Again, I don't see the braille instructor being replaced ... but
the software could help if one wasn't availalbe at the moment.
>>
>> I honestly don't see the big beef about this topic. Isn't the whole
thrust of the NFB to encourage students to excel in the STEM curriculum?
Wouldn't it be a good thing to provide them with tools that allow them to
succeed independently? I'm not suggesting that the accomodations that are
in place be changed. I'm just saying ... consider a tool that would give
the student some help. Maybe I'm just wet, but I get a bit excited when I
find a way that I can do something I want to do and I don't have to wait on
someone else or be dependent because of my vision. I thought this idea
might help a student work on their own and maybe open this subject to them
just a bit.
>>
>> Maybe I'm just bucking a system that is inflexible and sees such a
product as a threat to their existence. Maybe people really don't want to
change the status quo.
>>
>> Comments welcome.
>> ---- "Hyde wrote:
>>> This is an IEP issue. It also is a good opportunity for self-advocacy.
It is required that the text be accessible. Parents and student need to talk
to the TVI and the school. Taking the book home is an IEP issue IBID. As
much as some schools and some teachers think that software is the solution,
it isn't. You can contact me off list, or you can get help from teachers on
the teachers and educators' lists.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole
Torcolini
>>> Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 4:39 PM
>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Math software
>>>
>>> My responses written inline.
>>>
>>> I was at our NFB chapter meeting the other night and some of the kids I
was chatting with were saying how difficult it is to do math.
>>>
>>> I could relate since I remember sitting in class when I had zero
technology and couldn't read the board ... you sort of just zone out.
>>>
>>> Someone needs to tell the teacher that he/she needs to read what is on
the board. If that is not enough, then the students should be allowed to
have a notetaker. I did ot have a notetaker in high school, but I did in
several of my college classes, particularly the math/science ones.
>>>
>>> They told me that some of the schools (high school I believe) don't let
you take the book home. And since they can't see what's going on in the
class and can't take the book home, they struggle terribly.
>>>
>>> That's ridiculous. Even if that is what the rules are, sometimes
acceptions can be made. It's called accommodations.
>>>
>>> Also, some were saying even if they could take the book, they couldn't
read it, and some said their parents didn't know enough math to help them.
>>> Bottom line, math was a huge struggle for these kids.
>>>
>>> Why aren't TVIs working with these students to help them find a method
of reading/writing math that works for them?
>>>
>>> I haven't done any searching, but I was wondering if there are software
solutions out there that could allow some of the following:
>>>
>>> I agree that it is a good thought, but I am not sure that software is
necessarily the solution, or, if it is, that it is the only thing that needs
to be done.
>>>
>>> 1. The textbook is in accessible format so that a student can access it
at home or at school with Jaws/Braille.
>>>
>>> 2. Allows the teacher to compose lessons - when the student can't read
the book and doesn't have access to an electronic version of the book.
>>>
>>> 3. Allows teacher (as part of composition) to enter the problems to be
solved in a "problem set".
>>>
>>> 4. Teacher should be able to save to disk, web, etc
>>>
>>> 4. Allows students to access the lessons from disk/web and problems
composed by the teacher.
>>>
>>> 5. If student can't solve the problem presented, have an automated
"solution solver" that will take student step by step through the solution.
>>>
>>> Student should be able to see a line by line solution so they can see
the steps necessary to solve the problem.
>>>
>>> 6. Allow student to work the problems and have computer check the
solution and tell student when right or wrong.
>>>
>>> 7. If homework, allow student to compose solution and save to disk or
upload to web.
>>>
>>> 8. Allow teacher to access students work for grading.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Does anybody know if something like this is available? Granted, this
would NOT be trivial software to write, but having something like this would
allow the students to deal with complex math such as elementary algebra,
intermediate algebra, trig, etc, and get it in a format they can deal with.
>>> I think I would have found this useful back in the stone age when I was
in high school.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Anybody know of anything? Or, would you reply.... "you're a software
guy, write it!".
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
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