[nfbcs] Inaccessible training, again

[John G. Heim]

A text interface doesn't necessarily require memorization. A text interface could mean having a button with a label to click on instead of an image. And it's true that text is often better at conveying information than graphics. Obviously, a pie chart of expenditures can convey information better than the raw figures. And a video showing how to install a CPU would be better than a text description for most people. But an example of the reverse is the ubiquitous icon. From what I've heard, Microsoft still uses a graphic of a floppy disk to mean "Save". The meaning of that icon would never have been clear without the accompanying lable and today would be totally meaningless without it. Really, you've got to wonder how icons got to be so popular.

So how did icons get to be so popular? You could call them eye candy but the fact is that people like candy. Text interfaces are boring. But I don't think there is any question that many (I would personally say most) web designers take this concept of not being boring way too far. In the end, the popularity of your web site will always be determined by the information you have to convey. I don't care how pretty your web site is, people won't use it if there is nothing there for them. And most of the information we, as human beings have to convey, comes in the form of words, ie., text.

Take the thing that started this thread for an example -- instructional training. What are they training people to do, dance? Yeah, that would be best done with pictures. But most likely, its some kind of computer training and that is best done with words. There is no reason for that interface to be inacccessible.

On Feb 16, 2013, at 3:34 PM, Mike Freeman wrote:

> Jim:
> 
> I agree with you from a practical standpoint. However, I do not think it
> follows that fancy graphics, animations and cute interfaces necessarily
> imply "easy to use and intuitive". I maintain that very little involving
> computers is "intuitive" to use for *anyone,* blind or sighted. What many
> sighted folks find tough about text interfaces is that they have to memorize
> and these days, memorized, esoteric knowledge is no longer valued. So I'm
> not saying that the practical environment is necessarily one with which most
> of us who cannot see print will be comfortable or easy to work with.
> 
> However, I think we are doing a disservice to many (including the leadership
> in our own Movement) when we try to maintain that accessibility is easily
> achieved, at least with today's penchant for technology that's entertaining
> and, at least purportedly, doesn't require a great deal of knowledge
> beforehand. I think we're *always* going to be behind the curve, if only
> because we cannot anticipate innovation. This will be the case at least
> until we invent Mr. Data from STNG.
> 
> Moreover, I have become increasingly skeptical that we can pass laws that
> will have enough teeth to mandate accessibility, especially as we probably
> will never be able to define it strictly enough to satisfy lawyers who,
> after all, are intimately connected with passing and interpreting laws.
> Think about it. Laws work best when the majority at least tacitly accepts
> them. I don't see this happening anytime soon in the accessibility realm. We
> may all give lip-service to "Universal Design". But what that means in
> practical terms isn't always obvious.
> 
> That doesn't mean we shouldn't keep trying for the alternative is
> unthinkable. But I have become increasingly convinced that making
> accessibility mandatory amounts to promulgating standards that *everything*
> must meet and that a majority will find sufficiently acceptable to be
> enforceable.
> 
> I am not terribly sanguine.
> 
> Mike Freeman
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jim Barbour
> Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 11:12 AM
> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Inaccessible training, again
> 
> This is a very flawed interpretation of what it means to make products
> accessible and to the extent we spread this interpretation we're going
> to scare companies away from even trying to make their products accessible.
> 
> What Mike calls "eye candy" and "entertainment", user experience
> designers call "simple, intuitive, easy to understand interfaces."
> 
> Just because we learned to read text and interpret computers that way
> does not mean everyone else did, or should have to.
> 
> Applications that are easy for sighted folks to use and easy to
> understand means that employers don't need to hire a trained workforce
> to run these applications, and this is a good thing for them.
> 
> The real question is how to we as blind people compete in an
> environment where this type of application is the norm.
> 
> Where ever possible, we should encourage applications developers to add
> the markup we need.  Element labels, Aria markup, etc.
> 
> It may also be possible to use a different method to accomplish the
> training.  A different program, a scanned copy of the actual training
> content, etc.
> 
> It may also be possible to use a reader to accomplish certain kinds of
> training.
> 
> Setting the bar such that the only workable answer is computer
> programs we can use will fail.  The pace of coming up with user
> interfaces more usable by sighted folks will usually move faster than
> the pace of screen reading software.  This has always been true.
> 
> One final note, I hear a lot about how we should no longer need reader
> or other non-technical assistance to get along in the world.  I find
> this argument to lack any foundation.  It is no more the case today
> than it was 30 years ago that everything designed and built will fall
> into the category of "usable without vision"   As technology leaders
> in the NFB, we ought to encourage a move away from this line of
> thinking.
> 
> Jim
> 
> On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 06:30:16PM -0800, Mike Freeman wrote:
>> Companies could make things accessible very easily -- skip all eye-candy,
>> use straight HTML, use standard Windows controls and emphasize text over
>> entertainment. But they ain't a-gonna do that.
>> 
>> Mike
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John G. Heim
>> Sent: Friday, February 15, 2013 7:46 AM
>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Inaccessible training, again
>> 
>> Right, I'll admit it may be hopeless. Personally, I am unwilling to give 
>> up without a fight. And there is some reason for optimism. Companies 
>> like VMWare and Cisco need to sell their products to universities and 
>> those universities are subject to 508 regulations. I was part of an 
>> effort about 10 years ago to get Oracle to make their web interface more 
>> accessible. The people who licensed Oracle products for the University 
>> of Wisconsin asked me to give them information on the accessibility 
>> problems I had. They took them to Oracle and some of the problems got 
>> fixed.  So to some small degree, technology providers are interested in 
>> accessibility especially if they are made aware of the problems by 
>> institutions subject to 508 regulations. It's not much but it's something.
>> 
>> I talked to the chief  technology officer of VMWare a while ago. His 
>> name is Steve herrod. He happened to be in Madison for a seminar and I 
>> went up and introduced myself after the talk. He was very receptive to 
>> the problems with VMWare. I am not a VMWare technician so I had only a 
>> vague understanding of the problems. I think we could have gotten 
>> something done if I could have gotten help from some blind VMWare users. 
>>  This was particularly frustrating to me because I know some blind 
>> VMWare technologists and they are constantly complaining about it's 
>> accessibility problems. Yet my pleas for help with this effort went 
>> unanswered.
>> 
>> What I would like to do is put together a list of steps a company can 
>> take to make it more likely their products are accessible. For example, 
>> recruiting blind beta testers and designating someone in the company as 
>> the accessibility guru. Stuff like that. I figure if we go to these 
>> vendors, explain the problem, tell them we have suggestions and make it 
>> as easy as possible for them, we have a chance.
>> 
>> 
>> On 2/15/2013 9:16 AM, Gary Wunder wrote:
>>> Hello, John.  I did not know about this organization.  I think one of
> the
>>> questions that it will have to face after it surmounts the
> organizational
>>> problems you are talking about is what real power and leverage it will
>> have
>>> to exert.  What we found with Amazon was that they were perfectly
> willing
>> to
>>> sit down and talk with us, impressed us with their engineers, were
>> impressed
>>> by our technical expertise, but never really implemented the things we
>>> talked about.  It seemed to us that they either ignored what we had to
> say
>>> or through their accessibility engineers under the bus when it came time
>> to
>>> make a market decision about goal or no go when accessibility was
> broken.
>>> We have seen Microsoft make this decision plenty of times in their
> release
>>> all mobile phone operating systems.  They keep talking, we keep talking,
>>> they keep promising, but the releases go out the door.
>>> 
>>> Warmly,
>>> 
>>> Gary
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John G. Heim
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 11:01 AM
>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>> Cc: Gary Wunder
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Inaccessible training, again
>>> 
>>> I hope you guys all know there's a non-profit devoted to helping high
> tech
>>> workers with accessibility. It is the International Association of
>> Visually
>>> Impaired Technologists. See www.iavit.org. We've had trouble getting
>>> anything accomplished because it seems people like to complain but
> seldom
>>> want to actually do anything.
>>> 
>>> The one thing that I'd really like to see get off the ground is the
>>> committee to contact manufacturers of products high tech professionals
> use
>>> to raise their awareness of accessibility and possibly help them make
>> their
>>> products accessible. I'm talking about things like routers,
> virtualization
>>> software, and on-line courses. The NFB does a good job of working with
>>> companies like Microsoft on making sure things like email and
> spreadsheets
>>> are accessible. But nobody talks to Cisco or VMWare.
>>> That's what IAVIT is for.
>>> 
>>> Well, that is what it is supposed to be for. So far it's just a dream.
>>> Some would call it a fantasy.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 2/14/2013 9:41 AM, Gary Wunder wrote:
>>>> Hello, Steve.  In a large company what you face is frustrating; in a
>>>> smaller company it may well be overwhelming inasmuch as the small
>>>> company believes that it has no leverage to exert over providers.  I
>>>> think this has to be a major topic at our computer science meeting
>>>> this year.  I know the struggle; it wasn't so long ago that I was
>>>> arguing with the training department about whether it would make the
>>>> effort to use accessible software or would pay someone to sit with me,
>>>> do the reading, and press the buttons.  I did not feel comfortable
>>>> with the latter solution, but it was the most immediate one at hand,
>>>> and I think it does comply with the Americans With Disabilities Act.
>>>> Of course the problem is that you can only do so much of this without
>>>> being regarded as a burden by the people with whom you work and the
>> people
>>> who supervise you.
>>>> 
>>>> Warmly,
>>>> 
>>>> Gary
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve
>>>> Jacobson
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 11:09 AM
>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Inaccessible training, again
>>>> 
>>>> Tracy,
>>>> 
>>>> Do you know what the software that is being used is called?  I am
>>>> dealing with a similar problem here and getting nowhere.  I have had a
>>>> couple of cases where the reason for the course was for me to just
>>>> press a button to acknowledge I had read some documents that I had
>>>> read, and the button was not at all accessible.  When I complained,
>>>> reasonable accommodation was seen to be having a co-worker press the
>>>> button for me.  That worked in the short run, but what about the long
>>>> run?  I have had no luck getting the name of a contact outside of my
>>>> employer which is what I really need to see what can be done.
>>>> However, in my case, a good deal of the problem is with FLASH.  In one
>>>> course, the problem was that all buttons that were used in the entire
>>>> course remained visible to Window-Eyes, JFW and NVDA.  The TAB key
>>>> even jumped to them.  However most would do nothing when pressed
>>>> because they were not part of the current window.  There could easily
>>>> have been 100 unlabeled buttons of which maybe five were active, and
>>>> the others did not show visually.  I have another set of courses where
>>>> I figured out that the button that goes to the next frame which has a
>>> label of "next" is identified as "Close" by screen readers.  This isn't
> a
>>> problem once I figured it out.
>>>> Some of my courses display PDF documents within the course but
>>>> apparently provide their own inaccessible PDF viewer.  Sometimes I can
>>>> get these documents separately once I find the person who wrote the
>>>> course, but it all takes time away from my job.  In short, I'm with
>>>> you completely but don't really know where to turn.  Adobe will tell
>>>> us that FLASH can be made accessible and they have all kinds of
>>> information as to how to do it.
>>>> Developers will tell you that Adobe puts all of the burden on them.
>>>> Okay, so I'm venting, too.
>>>> <smile>  In my case, most courses have been accessible for me where I
>>>> work until the past couple of years, so I'm seeing the accessibility
>>>> slipping away.  The problem is that nobody realized that what they had
>>>> done was accessible because one doesn't complain about something when
>>>> it works.  In the old days, when there were instructors for classes, I
>>>> could often get by with taking careful notes and perhaps reading just
>>>> a little from the material.  I might just study a couple of diagrams
> with
>>> the Optacon.
>>>> However, we not only don't have instructors any longer, we are
>>>> required to take many more courses, some for legal documentation
>>>> purposes.  Some courses are such that I would have to get security
>>>> clearance for a reader, and the workload is so unpredictable, it isn't
>>>> a great solution, especially when this wouldn't have to be a problem.
>>>> Running into this kind of thing as well as the problems you and I have
>>>> mentioned with respect to computer update screens, and even what I see
>>>> as flakiness with screen readers in certain applications just gives
>>>> one an uneasy feeling about our progress.  There has to be a way to
>>>> put some pressure on some of these developers, and if we can get our
>>>> TEACH act passed, it might help in that some of these developers
>>>> probably develop some on-line courses for higher education.  However,
> in
>> a
>>> large company, this kind of thing is very frustrating.
>>>> 
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> 
>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> 
>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>> 
>>>> On Tue, 12 Feb 2013 11:36:54 -0500, Tracy Carcione wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> I was recently assigned some online training at work.  It's always
>>>>> been inaccessible, but I thought I should give it a try and see if
>>>>> somehow they had changed things.  Nope, still inaccessible.
>>>>> It's so frustrating, because it's almost accessible, except that
>>>>> there are lots of unlabeled buttons, and, when they ask a question
>>>>> designed to test my knowledge before moving on, it's displayed as a
>>>>> picture, with no
>>>> text.
>>>>> At which point I'm stuck, and have to stop.
>>>>> I've complained to Human Resources, to Training, and to some VP in
>>>>> charge of web-based training.  I just left feedback on the site,
>>>>> trying to explain the problem.  I really don't know what else to do.
>>>>> If they really want me to take this course, they'll have to assign
>>>>> someone to sit with me and do it, and the boss doesn't want to do
>>>>> that.  So I get no
>>>> training.
>>>>> I'm not sure what I'd actually learn from the training, but I guess
>>>>> I'll never know.
>>>>> And to add insult to injury, right on top of the training website it
>>>>> says "empowering people".  Well, not blind people.
>>>>> I'm just venting my frustration, though if anyone has some idea, I'm
>>>>> open to suggestions.
>>>>> Tracy
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
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>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
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