[nfbcs] Inaccessible Training - again

Mon Feb 18 21:24:45 UTC 2013

John,

I agree completely.  The so-called lowest hanging fruit I see in this area is to try to affect the market rather than companies 
where laws and regulations are more or les on our side and broaden them where we can.  Education and government are two places 
where the idea of software needing to be accessible has gained at least a degree of acceptance.  

The other area, though, is to try to educate companies that create software for large segments of society.  For example, it just 
seems that we need to lean harder on Adobe to do more than publish white papers on accessibility on their web site on how to 
create accessible PDF's and FLASH.  There are likely other key players with whom we should be interacting.  I know that our 
International Braille and Technology Center has done more quiet work than is generally known in some of these areas but somehow 
more has to happen.  These issues are not getting simpler, and I don't think it is only because I'm getting older.  <smile>  
Technology changes very quickly, and the entire playing field can change.  We are seeing huge changes within the educational 
system here in the United States that we pretty much have to harness or forget mainstreaming.  Having been educated in a 
residential school for the blind, I'm not one who finds the residential school option as negative as do some, but if we miss the 
boat in terms of accessibility to the changing education system, we will find ourselves without a boat when we look for a job.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Mon, 18 Feb 2013 12:21:39 -0600, John G. Heim wrote:

>There is no law that says software has to be accessible.  The closest 
>thing is that products purchased by agencies of the federal government 
>have to be accessible. Of course, it's not entirely that simple.

>A huge part of us have already benefited from these regulations. The Mac 
>has a built in screen reader because of the federal regulations.  As 
>long as there were third party screen readers for the Mac, Apple didn't 
>bother developing their own screen reader. When the last screen reader 
>went out of business, universities had to stop buying Macs to put into 
>their student labs and libraries. Well, Apple couldn't have that. So 
>they developed voiceOver.  I worked in the group at the University of 
>Wisconsin that put computers in labs and libraries. I wasn't responsible 
>for that myself but other people in my group were. And they started 
>switching to PCs with jaws and later to nvda.

>I'll hand it to Apple for being smart enough to see that the right thing 
>and the profitable thing were the same thing. And for making voiceover 
>available on all of their platforms from an IPod Touch to the Mac 
>servers. But they didn't do it out of the goodness of their heart. Like 
>any corporation, Apple doesn't have a heart. It's a business, not a person.

>On 2/18/2013 11:54 AM, Tami Jarvis wrote:
>> David,
>>
>> I too am thinking strongly that coming up with a way to communicate to
>> companies about the advantages to them of accessible design could go a
>> long way to turn the pendulum swing back towards more of that. So far,
>> the ideas about that going around in my head keep colliding and heading
>> off in useless directions... I'm working on it! /lol/
>>
>> What I'm really finding stunning, from the beginning of this whole
>> thread, is the amount of talent on this list that reports suddenly being
>> in the position that Tracy so efficiently stated: SOL until a sighted
>> co-worker can come along and click the mystery button on the screen for
>> them. Not to downplay the frustration and other negative effects of that
>> scenario on the individuals who are having to deal with it, but...
>>
>> That's a big waste of talent for the employers. Only it seems the
>> problems most frequently stem from third-party software, meaning the
>> employer is kinda stuck with it, too. I'm guessing said software
>> upgrades have already been bought and paid for, so I'm not finding the
>> providers' motivation to fix it there. Unless I'm missing something?
>>
>> So the law, especially if it can be brought to bear in a meaningful way,
>> is a useful tool for negative reinforcement when it comes to shoddy
>> product design and coding. The stick, I guess you could say, to back up
>> the carrot of the "here's how you can benefit from doing better"
>> approach. I'm not trying to say that any individual "should" sue, since
>> that is asking a lot of a person! Just saying that for those who are
>> willing and able to take that course, I think it does help overall.
>>
>> I guess I'm suggesting that a multi-pronged approach to turning the
>> trend towards inaccessible design around again is what we collectively
>> need. What any of us individually can or is willing to do... Well,
>> discussing and tossing around ideas is a great start. I'll keep trying
>> to come up with an actually useful one... /smile/
>>
>> Tami
>>
>>
>>
>> On 02/17/2013 04:07 PM, david hertweck wrote:
>>> You have good points, but the path that may help is.
>>> 1. share your problems on this list and let the talented people on this
>>> group pitch in to try and solve the problem.
>>> 2. I strongly believe if we can show companies how they can make a
>>> larger profit by making their product accessible this will work better
>>> than laws.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message----- From: Larry Wayland
>>> Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 1:13 PM
>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Inaccessible Training - again
>>>
>>> Dave, Gabe
>>> I agree with your points, especially the one about not griping on the
>>> job,
>>> but I think discussion should be wide open. Discussion is a normal
>>> thing in
>>> the work place and should include accessibility when necessary.
>>> Thinking outside the box is a good idea as well, but not everyone has
>>> that
>>> capability, at least to the point necessary to adapt work sites to the
>>> extent some of them need to be adapted.  Engineers are trained to think
>>> outside the box. Not everyone has that ability and there are job
>>> situations
>>> where thinking outside the box will do no good at all. I don't see what
>>> could be done to make a customer site accessible if is not. The companies
>>> using the software are not going to let you make changes to the software
>>> and
>>> all the work is right there in front of you either you can fill in the
>>> boxes
>>> or you can't. If you can talk the companies into letting you try to
>>> fix the
>>> problems with scripts or adjust the access software they sure are not
>>> going
>>> to give you much time. They want production and I don't blame them. The
>>> software should be accessible from the drawing board. I think only laws
>>> backed by education has any chance of working.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione
>>> Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 11:43 AM
>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Inaccessiable Training - again
>>>
>>> David and Gabe, I'm sure we all know these points.  But, if the
>>> training is
>>> just not accessible, I can spend all the time in the world looking at it,
>>> and still be where I was when I started.  Now, I could possibly log in
>>> from
>>> home and hire someone at home to do the mouse clicking.  That will
>>> work for
>>> training that doesn't involve anything confidential.  Otherwise, if
>>> there's
>>> no one at work who can help me, I'm S.O.L.
>>> Tracy
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "david hertweck" <david.hertweck at sbcglobal.net>
>>> To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, February 15, 2013 8:45 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Inaccessiable Training - again
>>>
>>>
>>>> As a blind engineer and now a manager working for a large company I
>>>> found
>>>> the best approach is:
>>>> 1. Try and find a way to do your job, be creative, think out of the box,
>>>> make it work.
>>>> 2. Put in extra hours.  I know a lot of sighted engineers if they are
>>>> not
>>>> as effective as other people they put in the extra time so we should be
>>>> willing to do this.
>>>> 3. Remember everyone has tasks to complete and completing yours can not
>>>> interfere with others.
>>>> 4. Before asking for help have an exact plan for how can that person
>>>> help
>>>> you.  What does not work is to ask someone to make "X" accessible for
>>>> you.
>>>> 5. Never "complain" find answers. It is super to "complain" in this
>>>> forum
>>>> but not at work.
>>>> 6. Always remember your manager most likely has more work and certainly
>>>> more responsibilities than you do, so you should never add to them for
>>>> accessibility problems.
>>>> 7. Always remember you are there for the company not the company for
>>>> you.
>>>>
>>>> thanks
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> through out my work life
>>>> and now as a manager of course they are not overwellming
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message----- From: majolls at cox.net
>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 10:50 AM
>>>> To: nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Inaccessiable Training - again
>>>>
>>>> Gary and all
>>>>
>>>> I think you hit the nail on the head.  To what end do you
>>>> "complain"?  If
>>>> you don't, you don't get anywhere.  And if you do (too much) you are
>>>> perceived as a burden ... and managers would rather not deal with you
>>>> and
>>>> get someone else that doesn't have the requirement that you do.  I work
>>>> for a large corporation.  I found that while managers can be
>>>> sympathetic,
>>>> others just don't care.  it really depends on your luck of the draw
>>>> regarding what manager you do get.
>>>>
>>>> I can remember voicing concern about sitting in a large room for a
>>>> presentation where they had big monitors up on the wall.  A presenter
>>>> would be running his demo, and the display was up on the "big screen".
>>>> Unfortunately, I couldn't read the big screen.  I was just too far away
>>>> and I'm just too blind.  When I voiced concern, what I mostly got was
>>>> "just do your best" ... which was absolutely no help.  I finally came up
>>>> with the idea ... "just run a data feed to a separate monitor that
>>>> can be
>>>> placed on a table that I can sit close to".  That idea really worked,
>>>> but
>>>> it took me ... not them ... to come up with the idea.  The managers ...
>>>> who are supposed to help you ... didn't have a clue what I needed, or
>>>> what
>>>
>>>> might work.  And, if I complained too much, they just said ... "do your
>>>> best" and sort of turned a deaf ear.
>>>>
>>>> And as far as going to bat for you ... trying to get the application
>>>> changed so it's accessible ... I think most managers have priorities on
>>>> what they have to get done.  When you require someone to sit with you
>>>> (meaning time and money) or when you ask your manager to help you ...
>>>> they'll do it as long as it isn't excessive ... meaning as long as it
>>>> doesn't take a lot of time and money.  If it does, you're kind of on
>>>> your
>>>> own.  And as far as them modifying software to be accessible ... that's
>>>> only an option if your company doesn't have a lot of other "business
>>>> requirements" they have to get done first.  Where I'm at, that's always
>>>> the case.
>>>>
>>>> I guess we all just need to be experts on Accessibility programming
>>>> so we
>>>> can do it ourselves.  Wish I had better things to say, but I've only had
>>>> 35 years of experience in dealing with this.  And it doesn't sound like
>>>> the federal government is any better than private industry.  People
>>>> (managers) are people no matter where you go I suppose.
>>>>
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>>>>
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