[nfbcs] Is Life Fair or Inaccessiable Training - again

Tue Feb 19 03:23:03 UTC 2013

	John,

I have not seen the "life isn't fair" used to blame blind people for not being employed as such, but perhaps I reacted more to your comments than is relevant to this discussion as you said.  It is just so easy for us 
to think that if we had vision, everything would be perfect and that life is not unfair to sighted persons.  Anyway, I think there are some interesting aspects to this accessibility discussion that are important to 
have.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Mon, 18 Feb 2013 15:38:20 -0600, John G. Heim wrote:

>Well, not to dispute anything you say, Steve, but it's not particularly 
>relevant to the topic at hand. I brought up the fairness issue because I 
>felt the list was getting dangerously close to blaming blind people 
>themselves for being unemployed. There is a huge, huge difference 
>between advising people that they should be prepared to put in extra 
>hours to keep up with their sighted counterparts and telling them it's 
>their own fault if they can't keep up.

>I'll be the first to admit that some blind people just need a kick in 
>the fanny. But that's a tiny minority. And it steams my wheaties when 
>those of us who've made it act superior to those who haven't.  That 
>hurts us all. Whether we like it or not, we're all tied together to a 
>great degree. When any of us fails, it makes it harder for the others. 
>There is no better example of a rising tide lifting all boats than with 
>disability rights.

>On 2/18/2013 2:42 PM, Steve Jacobson wrote:
>> John,
>>
>> This topic of the fairness of life is one that I have thought about a good deal so I could not resist responding.  To start with,
>> though, I readily accept that blindness is a major barrier to getting and keeping a job.  It is also a major adjustment for those
>> who had vision and lost it, although there are adjustments that those of us who have been blind have to make as well.  At least
>> for me, saying that life isn't fair for anyone is not a means to discount the struggles of the unemployed blind person.  However,
>> it does define how I look at aspects of life.  I do not think that saying life is not fair to anyone is saying that it is equally
>> unfair.  Certainly there are those who experience less unfairness than others.
>>
>> Still, I would rather be blind in Minnesota than be a sighted woman in many countries where women are denied self-determination
>> for religious or cultural reasons.  Perhaps that seems like a no-brainer, but life isn't fair to them.  There are other segments
>> of the world's population with whom I would not wish to trade places, even if it meant having vision.  I could go down a list of
>> people who have normal vision with whom I am acquainted but would not wish to trade places even if it meant getting their sight.
>> I can say that if I had normal vision and all other things were the same, I would likely have an easier time doing my current job
>> and perhaps would do it better.  However, it is a large assumption to say that all other things would be the same.  Had I been
>> sighted, I would very likely have spent time serving in Vietnam, for example, and that changed a lot of people, mostly for the
>> worse.  I may not have stuck with college, not feeling as strongly that it was important for employment.  In short, I won't tell
>> you that I never wish I had sight, but I can honestly say that I do not take it for granted that I would be better off if I had
>> not been born blind.
>>
>> It affects how I look at what we need from society.  I don't think society can make life fair for everyone by compensating for all
>> of the unfairness because there are many different kinds of unfairness.  However, I believe it is in society's interest as well as
>> our interest to try to make things accessible, for example, because it means we can more likely contribute to society.  This
>> certainly benefits me, but it benefits society as well as a whole.
>>
>> It is far too easy to single blindness out when considering what is fair or not fair and to make the unfairness a reason not to do
>> what one can to deal with one's blindness.  Yet, there is truly unfairness in how blindness is viewed by the public, and that
>> certainly plays a large role in our high unemployment rate.  How I am viewed by society can change and I can even play a role in
>> making that change.  Nothing currently available will change the fact that I am blind, though, so I see myself as needing to make
>> the most of what I am and not spend too much time wishing I were something different.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Steve Jacobson
>>
>> On Mon, 18 Feb 2013 11:12:30 -0600, John G. Heim wrote:
>>
>>> But it's not true that life is unfair for everyone.  The vast majority
>>> of people never have to overcome a challenge like blindness.
>>
>>> This was driven home to me a few years ago when I wanted to change jobs.
>>> Until I went blind, I had never been turned down for a job I'd
>>> interviewed for. I mean that literally. Since I got my degree, I had
>>> never been turned down after interviewing for a job. Sometimes I had
>>> several offers at once but I had never been turned down. The
>>> discrimination I faced after I went blind came as quite a shock to me. I
>>> couldn't believe the way most people paid way, way more attention to my
>>> disability than my resume. One woman outright refused to interview me
>>> because she didn't believe I could use a computer at all. And that was
>>> for a job that was, frankly, beneath me. Of course, I just passed that
>>> woman off as an idiot. But if I had really needed that job, that would
>>> have hurt.
>>
>>> In my opinion, this lack of empathy those of us who have made it show
>>> toward those who have not is a huge problem. I think it greatly
>>> undermines our ability to get anything done. My opinion is that those of
>>> us who have made it are obligated to try to make it easier for the next
>>> guy. After all, oour paths were smoothed by those who came before us. I
>>> can show you messages where I've criticized kenneth Jernigan
>>> tremendously. I have huge problems with a lot of things he said and did.
>>> But there is no question that none of us would be where we are without
>>> him and one heck of a lot of other people like him.
>>
>>> On 2/17/2013 5:59 PM, david hertweck wrote:
>>>> You are 100% correct, but this is true for every one regardless if they
>>>> have a handicap or not.
>>>> Who ever said life is fare or even should be fare.  It is a matter of
>>>> how much do we want to have a job.
>>>> I get what you are saying it makes me very angry when it is such a pain
>>>> to access something that is trivial for a sighted person.
>>>>
>>>> One of the ideas I am playing with is how to show companies how they can
>>>> make a larger profit by making their products accessible.  Requiring
>>>> this by law only gets you so far.
>>>>
>>>> Another idea there seams to be a large amount of talent on this list, if
>>>> some one has an need lets jointly try and solve it.
>>>>
>>>> thanks.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message----- From: John G. Heim
>>>> Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 4:12 PM
>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Inaccessiable Training - again
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I don't mean to question the value of the advice given below. It's all
>>>> true, of course. But lets not start blaming blind people for
>>>> accessibility problems. The truth is that to compete against sighted
>>>> people, you often have to be even more mentally tough and work harder
>>>> than they do. But lets face it, that's not really fair.
>>>> And there is another side to this, you can do everything right and still
>>>> fail. You might work your tail off establishing a career and then if the
>>>> vendors of technology products you use make them inaccessible, well you
>>>> are screwed.
>>>>
>>>> I would never question the value of tips on how a blind person can be
>>>> the perfect employee. That is one necessary ingredient in building a
>>>> successful career. You can't succeed without doing the thngs listed
>>>> below. But they don't guarantee success.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 15, 2013, at 8:07 PM, Gabe Vega Via Iphone4S wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hell yeah! This post states everything I think. And I believe this is
>>>>> what blind people forget all the time. Maybe you all should read this
>>>>> over and over and over again. Thank you for this post.
>>>>>
>>>>> Gabe Vega
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>> (623) 565-9357
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 15, 2013, at 6:45 PM, "david hertweck"
>>>>> <david.hertweck at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> As a blind engineer and now a manager working for a large company I
>>>>>> found the best approach is:
>>>>>> 1. Try and find a way to do your job, be creative, think out of the
>>>>>> box, make it work.
>>>>>> 2. Put in extra hours.  I know a lot of sighted engineers if they are
>>>>>> not as effective as other people they put in the extra time so we
>>>>>> should be willing to do this.
>>>>>> 3. Remember everyone has tasks to complete and completing yours can
>>>>>> not interfere with others.
>>>>>> 4. Before asking for help have an exact plan for how can that person
>>>>>> help you.  What does not work is to ask someone to make "X"
>>>>>> accessible for you.
>>>>>> 5. Never "complain" find answers. It is super to "complain" in this
>>>>>> forum but not at work.
>>>>>> 6. Always remember your manager most likely has more work and
>>>>>> certainly more responsibilities than you do, so you should never add
>>>>>> to them for accessibility problems.
>>>>>> 7. Always remember you are there for the company not the company for
>>>>>> you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> thanks
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> through out my work life
>>>>>> and now as a manager of course they are not overwellming
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: majolls at cox.net
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 10:50 AM
>>>>>> To: nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Inaccessiable Training - again
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gary and all
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think you hit the nail on the head.  To what end do you
>>>>>> "complain"?  If you don't, you don't get anywhere.  And if you do
>>>>>> (too much) you are perceived as a burden ... and managers would
>>>>>> rather not deal with you and get someone else that doesn't have the
>>>>>> requirement that you do.  I work for a large corporation.  I found
>>>>>> that while managers can be sympathetic, others just don't care.  it
>>>>>> really depends on your luck of the draw regarding what manager you do
>>>>>> get.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can remember voicing concern about sitting in a large room for a
>>>>>> presentation where they had big monitors up on the wall.  A presenter
>>>>>> would be running his demo, and the display was up on the "big
>>>>>> screen". Unfortunately, I couldn't read the big screen.  I was just
>>>>>> too far away and I'm just too blind.  When I voiced concern, what I
>>>>>> mostly got was "just do your best" ... which was absolutely no help.
>>>>>> I finally came up with the idea ... "just run a data feed to a
>>>>>> separate monitor that can be placed on a table that I can sit close
>>>>>> to".  That idea really worked, but it took me ... not them ... to
>>>>>> come up with the idea.  The managers ... who are supposed to help you
>>>>>> ... didn't have a clue what I needed, or what might work.  And, if I
>>>>>> complained too much, they just said ... "do your best" and sort of
>>>>>> turned a deaf ear.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And as far as going to bat for you ... trying to get the application
>>>>>> changed so it's accessible ... I think most managers have priorities
>>>>>> on what they have to get done.  When you require someone to sit with
>>>>>> you (meaning time and money) or when you ask your manager to help you
>>>>>> ... they'll do it as long as it isn't excessive ... meaning as long
>>>>>> as it doesn't take a lot of time and money.  If it does, you're kind
>>>>>> of on your own.  And as far as them modifying software to be
>>>>>> accessible ... that's only an option if your company doesn't have a
>>>>>> lot of other "business requirements" they have to get done first.
>>>>>> Where I'm at, that's always the case.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I guess we all just need to be experts on Accessibility programming
>>>>>> so we can do it ourselves.  Wish I had better things to say, but I've
>>>>>> only had 35 years of experience in dealing with this.  And it doesn't
>>>>>> sound like the federal government is any better than private
>>>>>> industry.  People (managers) are people no matter where you go I
>>>>>> suppose.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>
>>
>>
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