[nfbcs] Inaccessible training, again

Wed Feb 20 03:14:26 UTC 2013

Gary:

I don't buy that computer GUI geeks are trying to make the computer look
more like the world to them. Why? Because from what the sighted tell me, the
icons don't really look like what they're represented to be. I think it's
simply habit and rampant featuritis. Jim's example of street signs is
instructive. Yes, people look for the octagon STOP sign. But it's no
*wonder* they get lost so often if they don't *read* the street signs. I'm
sorry but I truly consider that we've gotten awfully lazy expecting
everything else to process our information for us so we can suck it up thru
a straw like a puree as opposed to actually chewing on it. It's this aspect
of modern society that bugs me so; that we can just expect everything
already processed rather than having to work at it a bit.

We seem to have forgotten the sort of advice we used to get and give when
discussing working with the law: "Know your law; you'll know more than
ninety percent of your colleagues will because their too lazy to study it"
-- that sort of thing.

But eye-candy is here to stay because people have become addicted to it --
like Schreck movies as opposed to Casa Blanca.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Gary Wunder
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 10:23 AM
To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Inaccessible training, again

I have to agree with Jim in his reluctance to simplify every part of the GUI
as eye candy. Think about the way we function as blind people. If I tell Jim
to find me the salt shaker, he doesn't begin by feeling for labels. He
doesn't spend much time on bottles or cans or cardboard boxes. He looks for
something made of plastic or glass or metal, something round, something of
the size he knows the salt shaker to be. It is only when he finds something
that feels like what may be the salt shaker that he looks at the label to
determine it is not the pepper.

Eye candy is a term I have a lot of fun with, but I think one of the reasons
that I like it is that it prevents me from acknowledging that I candy is
reality.  People who work on graphical interfaces are simply trying to make
the computer look more like the world does to them, and as much as we might
wish that the world was framed for everyone in words, it just isn't so, not
even for us.

I know that right now everyone is turned on by the idea of having an
out-of-the-box experience at the same cost that the sighted get it.  I am
jazzed by the idea but for complicated applications quite skeptical that it
will ever happen.  I think there will always be times when the way I access
information will require someone to code with me in mind.  I'm not just
talking about born accessible products but one's made specifically for the
blind.  Set aside for a moment how far behind notetaker technology has
fallen with regard to operating systems, and consider the wonderful
integration we have when we use a braille notetaker.  What could be better
than finding a mistake, moving one's finger up to move the cursor to it, and
being right where you want to be to make the correction?  I don't know how
editing could be made easier, but I understand that cursor routing using
one's finger has been written specifically with blind people in mind.

I think one principle that will remain true for a long time is that blind
people will need to have a very full toolbox if we are to compete in the
world.  It won't be enough to say that I will only use off-the-shelf
products; it won't be enough to say that I'm not going to bother with the
products made for the sighted but will use only those made for blind people.
We're always going to have some combination of both, and what success we
achieved will depend on using all of them to our advantage.

-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jim Barbour
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 1:12 PM
To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Inaccessible training, again

This is a very flawed interpretation of what it means to make products
accessible and to the extent we spread this interpretation we're going to
scare companies away from even trying to make their products accessible.

What Mike calls "eye candy" and "entertainment", user experience designers
call "simple, intuitive, easy to understand interfaces."

Just because we learned to read text and interpret computers that way does
not mean everyone else did, or should have to.

Applications that are easy for sighted folks to use and easy to understand
means that employers don't need to hire a trained workforce to run these
applications, and this is a good thing for them.

The real question is how to we as blind people compete in an environment
where this type of application is the norm.

Where ever possible, we should encourage applications developers to add the
markup we need.  Element labels, Aria markup, etc.

It may also be possible to use a different method to accomplish the
training.  A different program, a scanned copy of the actual training
content, etc.

It may also be possible to use a reader to accomplish certain kinds of
training.

Setting the bar such that the only workable answer is computer programs we
can use will fail.  The pace of coming up with user interfaces more usable
by sighted folks will usually move faster than the pace of screen reading
software.  This has always been true.

One final note, I hear a lot about how we should no longer need reader or
other non-technical assistance to get along in the world.  I find this
argument to lack any foundation.  It is no more the case today than it was
30 years ago that everything designed and built will fall
into the category of "usable without vision"   As technology leaders
in the NFB, we ought to encourage a move away from this line of thinking.

Jim

On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 06:30:16PM -0800, Mike Freeman wrote:
> Companies could make things accessible very easily -- skip all 
> eye-candy, use straight HTML, use standard Windows controls and 
> emphasize text over entertainment. But they ain't a-gonna do that.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John G. 
> Heim
> Sent: Friday, February 15, 2013 7:46 AM
> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Inaccessible training, again
> 
> Right, I'll admit it may be hopeless. Personally, I am unwilling to 
> give up without a fight. And there is some reason for optimism. 
> Companies like VMWare and Cisco need to sell their products to 
> universities and those universities are subject to 508 regulations. I 
> was part of an effort about 10 years ago to get Oracle to make their 
> web interface more accessible. The people who licensed Oracle products 
> for the University of Wisconsin asked me to give them information on 
> the accessibility problems I had. They took them to Oracle and some of 
> the problems got fixed.  So to some small degree, technology providers 
> are interested in accessibility especially if they are made aware of 
> the problems by institutions subject to 508 regulations. It's not much but
it's something.
> 
> I talked to the chief  technology officer of VMWare a while ago. His 
> name is Steve herrod. He happened to be in Madison for a seminar and I 
> went up and introduced myself after the talk. He was very receptive to 
> the problems with VMWare. I am not a VMWare technician so I had only a 
> vague understanding of the problems. I think we could have gotten 
> something done if I could have gotten help from some blind VMWare users.
>   This was particularly frustrating to me because I know some blind 
> VMWare technologists and they are constantly complaining about it's 
> accessibility problems. Yet my pleas for help with this effort went 
> unanswered.
> 
> What I would like to do is put together a list of steps a company can 
> take to make it more likely their products are accessible. For 
> example, recruiting blind beta testers and designating someone in the 
> company as the accessibility guru. Stuff like that. I figure if we go 
> to these vendors, explain the problem, tell them we have suggestions 
> and make it as easy as possible for them, we have a chance.
> 
> 
> On 2/15/2013 9:16 AM, Gary Wunder wrote:
> > Hello, John.  I did not know about this organization.  I think one 
> > of the questions that it will have to face after it surmounts the 
> > organizational problems you are talking about is what real power and 
> > leverage it will
> have
> > to exert.  What we found with Amazon was that they were perfectly 
> > willing
> to
> > sit down and talk with us, impressed us with their engineers, were
> impressed
> > by our technical expertise, but never really implemented the things 
> > we talked about.  It seemed to us that they either ignored what we 
> > had to say or through their accessibility engineers under the bus 
> > when it came time
> to
> > make a market decision about goal or no go when accessibility was
broken.
> > We have seen Microsoft make this decision plenty of times in their 
> > release all mobile phone operating systems.  They keep talking, we 
> > keep talking, they keep promising, but the releases go out the door.
> >
> > Warmly,
> >
> > Gary
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John G. 
> > Heim
> > Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 11:01 AM
> > To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> > Cc: Gary Wunder
> > Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Inaccessible training, again
> >
> > I hope you guys all know there's a non-profit devoted to helping 
> > high tech workers with accessibility. It is the International 
> > Association of
> Visually
> > Impaired Technologists. See www.iavit.org. We've had trouble getting 
> > anything accomplished because it seems people like to complain but 
> > seldom want to actually do anything.
> >
> > The one thing that I'd really like to see get off the ground is the 
> > committee to contact manufacturers of products high tech 
> > professionals use to raise their awareness of accessibility and 
> > possibly help them make
> their
> > products accessible. I'm talking about things like routers, 
> > virtualization software, and on-line courses. The NFB does a good 
> > job of working with companies like Microsoft on making sure things 
> > like email and spreadsheets are accessible. But nobody talks to Cisco or
VMWare.
> > That's what IAVIT is for.
> >
> > Well, that is what it is supposed to be for. So far it's just a dream.
> > Some would call it a fantasy.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 2/14/2013 9:41 AM, Gary Wunder wrote:
> >> Hello, Steve.  In a large company what you face is frustrating; in 
> >> a smaller company it may well be overwhelming inasmuch as the small 
> >> company believes that it has no leverage to exert over providers.  
> >> I think this has to be a major topic at our computer science 
> >> meeting this year.  I know the struggle; it wasn't so long ago that 
> >> I was arguing with the training department about whether it would 
> >> make the effort to use accessible software or would pay someone to 
> >> sit with me, do the reading, and press the buttons.  I did not feel 
> >> comfortable with the latter solution, but it was the most immediate 
> >> one at hand, and I think it does comply with the Americans With
Disabilities Act.
> >> Of course the problem is that you can only do so much of this 
> >> without being regarded as a burden by the people with whom you work 
> >> and the
> people
> > who supervise you.
> >>
> >> Warmly,
> >>
> >> Gary
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve 
> >> Jacobson
> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 11:09 AM
> >> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> >> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Inaccessible training, again
> >>
> >> Tracy,
> >>
> >> Do you know what the software that is being used is called?  I am 
> >> dealing with a similar problem here and getting nowhere.  I have 
> >> had a couple of cases where the reason for the course was for me to 
> >> just press a button to acknowledge I had read some documents that I 
> >> had read, and the button was not at all accessible.  When I 
> >> complained, reasonable accommodation was seen to be having a 
> >> co-worker press the button for me.  That worked in the short run, 
> >> but what about the long run?  I have had no luck getting the name 
> >> of a contact outside of my employer which is what I really need to see
what can be done.
> >> However, in my case, a good deal of the problem is with FLASH.  In 
> >> one course, the problem was that all buttons that were used in the 
> >> entire course remained visible to Window-Eyes, JFW and NVDA.  The 
> >> TAB key even jumped to them.  However most would do nothing when 
> >> pressed because they were not part of the current window.  There 
> >> could easily have been 100 unlabeled buttons of which maybe five 
> >> were active, and the others did not show visually.  I have another 
> >> set of courses where I figured out that the button that goes to the 
> >> next frame which has a
> > label of "next" is identified as "Close" by screen readers.  This 
> > isn't a problem once I figured it out.
> >> Some of my courses display PDF documents within the course but 
> >> apparently provide their own inaccessible PDF viewer.  Sometimes I 
> >> can get these documents separately once I find the person who wrote 
> >> the course, but it all takes time away from my job.  In short, I'm 
> >> with you completely but don't really know where to turn.  Adobe 
> >> will tell us that FLASH can be made accessible and they have all 
> >> kinds of
> > information as to how to do it.
> >> Developers will tell you that Adobe puts all of the burden on them.
> >> Okay, so I'm venting, too.
> >> <smile>  In my case, most courses have been accessible for me where 
> >> I work until the past couple of years, so I'm seeing the 
> >> accessibility slipping away.  The problem is that nobody realized 
> >> that what they had done was accessible because one doesn't complain 
> >> about something when it works.  In the old days, when there were 
> >> instructors for classes, I could often get by with taking careful 
> >> notes and perhaps reading just a little from the material.  I might 
> >> just study a couple of diagrams with
> > the Optacon.
> >> However, we not only don't have instructors any longer, we are 
> >> required to take many more courses, some for legal documentation 
> >> purposes.  Some courses are such that I would have to get security 
> >> clearance for a reader, and the workload is so unpredictable, it 
> >> isn't a great solution, especially when this wouldn't have to be a
problem.
> >> Running into this kind of thing as well as the problems you and I 
> >> have mentioned with respect to computer update screens, and even 
> >> what I see as flakiness with screen readers in certain applications 
> >> just gives one an uneasy feeling about our progress.  There has to 
> >> be a way to put some pressure on some of these developers, and if 
> >> we can get our TEACH act passed, it might help in that some of 
> >> these developers probably develop some on-line courses for higher 
> >> education.  However, in
> a
> > large company, this kind of thing is very frustrating.
> >>
> >> Best regards,
> >>
> >> Steve Jacobson
> >>
> >>
> >> Best regards,
> >>
> >> Steve Jacobson
> >>
> >> On Tue, 12 Feb 2013 11:36:54 -0500, Tracy Carcione wrote:
> >>
> >>> I was recently assigned some online training at work.  It's always 
> >>> been inaccessible, but I thought I should give it a try and see if 
> >>> somehow they had changed things.  Nope, still inaccessible.
> >>> It's so frustrating, because it's almost accessible, except that 
> >>> there are lots of unlabeled buttons, and, when they ask a question 
> >>> designed to test my knowledge before moving on, it's displayed as 
> >>> a picture, with no
> >> text.
> >>> At which point I'm stuck, and have to stop.
> >>> I've complained to Human Resources, to Training, and to some VP in 
> >>> charge of web-based training.  I just left feedback on the site, 
> >>> trying to explain the problem.  I really don't know what else to do.
> >>> If they really want me to take this course, they'll have to assign 
> >>> someone to sit with me and do it, and the boss doesn't want to do 
> >>> that.  So I get no
> >> training.
> >>> I'm not sure what I'd actually learn from the training, but I 
> >>> guess I'll never know.
> >>> And to add insult to injury, right on top of the training website 
> >>> it says "empowering people".  Well, not blind people.
> >>> I'm just venting my frustration, though if anyone has some idea, 
> >>> I'm open to suggestions.
> >>> Tracy
> >>
> >>
> >>
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> >>
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