[nfbcs] bs is bs

Wed Feb 20 20:48:44 UTC 2013

blah blah blah... i couldn't even finish reading that email.  Yes, all
you need is to like programming and you'll go far.  You'll learn a
million times more by getting your hands dirty on your own than you'll
ever learn from a textbook or a boring lecture.  You sap all the fun
out of computers.  Boredom is the kiss of death.
bill

On 2/20/13, Jim Barbour <jbar at barcore.com> wrote:
> Let's not go from one extreme to the other here.
>
> It is certainly not a requirement to have a degree in computer science
> in order to program.  I didn't finish mine, and know many other people
> who are coders, designers, product managers, and even architects don't
> have a computer science degree.
>
> However, you also can not expect to go from no experience to a
> computer programming job.
>
> Building apps for an iPhone is not known for being a lucrative way to
> make a living. See articles like this one for a bit a flavor
>
>
> <http://www.cultofmac.com/175065/inside-the-app-economy-making-big-money-is-far-from-a-sure-thing/>
>
> It's also worth keeping in mind that building apps for iPhone and
> android will take more time for a blind person.  This is because
> they'll need to use statement based configuration language to layout
> their app, whereas sighted folks can use GUI layout tools.
>
> I'd also say that learning the semantics of a programming language is
> not why people go for CS degrees.  There's a lot to be learned about
> how to do proper user experience designs, how to design and write code
> that is easier to debug and free of common bug types, etc.
>
> Also, don't think for a minute that you can build and app and put it
> in the app store and not market it.  It's very important to think
> about who you want to download your app and what they'll pay for it.
> It's also good to think about who should get your 1.0 version, people
> who aren't afraid of bugs and really want to try out your code,
> V. people who will give your app a very bad name if any bugs are
> found.
>
> None of this requires a CS degree, but it does require some
> experience, some mentorship, a lot of hard work, and reasonable
> expectations about how you'll make money at this venture.
>
> Finally, I don't know what to say to someone who says to me "I like
> computers and want to be a computer programmer."  It implies that you
> can simply do a bit of self study and then start coding up
> applications to run on other people's computers.  You're not very
> likely to find gainful employment that way.
>
> The two best ways to gain employment into the IT industry are...
>
>   1) Doing tech work for a largish.  Handling help desk phone calls,
>      setting up computers, doing computer repair, etc.
>   2) Having knowledge in a specialized niche that you can contribute
>      toward an application.  So, for example, if you're a psychology
>      major and have an idea for a clinical app that hasn't been
>      written.  You could partner with a programmer and come up with a
>      new app that might make money.
>
> I hope this helps,
>
> Jim
>
> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 12:14:20PM -0800, William Grussenmeyer wrote:
>> dont agree at all.  he's all ready got a bachelors in another field.
>> they don't care what your degree is in as long as you can program.
>> and who needs to take courses on assembly language anyway?
>>
>> 80 billion apple apps sold and counting....
>> hook your iPhone to your mac and start learning how to program mobile
>> devices.  no cost to you for distribution and no cost for marketing...
>> hook your app to facebook and twitter.
>>
>> don't waste all your time with this formal stuff.  just make some
>> mobile apps and if they dont make you money, then show them around on
>> your resume to consulting companies that might give you a job online
>> without having to move.
>>
>> bill
>>
>> On 2/20/13, Hyde, David W. (ESC) <david.hyde at wcbvi.k12.wi.us> wrote:
>> > Enough said.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>> > majolls at cox.net
>> > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 10:27 AM
>> > To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>> > Subject: Re: [nfbcs] (no subject)
>> >
>> > I couldn't agree more with your advice.  A 4 year B.S. degree is
>> > ABSOLUTELY
>> > a requirement.  There's a reason why a computer science major requires
>> > 36
>> > (or more) hours (10-12 classes) of study.  It takes awhile to get your
>> > head
>> > around how tothink about the computer, how they work, etc... And, there
>> > is
>> > really that much material to learn.  And not only do you learn the
>> > computer
>> > science topics in your degree program, but you also get the math and
>> > english
>> > background you'll need for solving problems and writing you'll need to
>> > communicate.  A college education is really a must.  There is no
>> > substitute.
>> >  Also, if you're on your own, you will probably not think to study a lot
>> > of
>> > the topics you will be exposed to ... computer topics that is.   You
>> > might
>> > think .. I can get a book on programming and learn this .. but there are
>> > a
>> > LOT of fine points that you wouldn't know to study because you don't
>> > know
>> > what needs to be learned.  Bottom line .. there's a lot to learn.  The
>> > degree is the way to go.
>> >
>> > And DO NOT listen to these technical schools that tell you ... "16
>> > months ..
>> > get the education .. get the job".  I've seen family members try the
>> > quick
>> > fix and they got screwed - they were charged $25,000 for what amounted
>> > to a
>> > 2-year degree when they could have gotten that training for 1/4 the cost
>> > at
>> > a Junior College.  And, they didn't get the same level of education.
>> > It's
>> > just not worth it and they're ripping people off.
>> >
>> > Also, as pointed out, businesses look at the B.S. degree as a rite of
>> > passage - as the proof that you're qualified.  That's sound advice.  Get
>> > the
>> > degree, then the business knows you're qualified.  Where I program, you
>> > can't even walk in the door unless you don't have a degree.
>> >
>> > ---- "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu> wrote:
>> >> Are you asking for advice on what kind of computer science program to
>> >> get into? Have you been offered the opportunity to get into one of
>> >> these programs many states have to teach blind people computer
>> >> programming?
>> >> Because I think you are going to have a very hard time getting a job
>> >> as a programmer without either a degree or a lot of experience.  I
>> >> wouldn't say its totally impossible but darn near it. Very few
>> >> companies would even let you pay them to work on their computers
>> >> unless you have proven skills. You wouldn't  let a self-taught doctor
>> >> operate on you, would you?
>> >>
>> >> There is a huge amount of competition even for the jobs that just
>> >> require an Associate Degree. Any job that doesn't even require an
>> >> Associate Degree is going to have bzillions of applicants. In fact, I
>> >> doubt there even are such jobs. I hate to be so negative but I don't
>> >> think you can get a job just by teaching yourself programming even if
>> >> you are really good. You have to have some way to document that you
>> >> know what you are doing or you are going to have a very, very hard
>> >> time finding a job.
>> >>
>> >> IMO, the major benefit of the state-run programs is that then you are
>> >> already in the system and they can find you a position at some place
>> >> as an affirmative action hire.  Don't knock it -- anything to get your
>> >> foot in the door works.
>> >>
>> >> But if you can swing it, I highly recommend a BS degree or better.
>> >> There will be a lot of people who tell you it doesn't matter but
>> >> they're wrong. First of all, it opens a lot of doors that would
>> >> otherwise be closed. Secondly, programming is a tough job in one
>> >> particular way -- every few years the paradigm changes completely and
>> >> you have to relearn everything you ever knew. But the basic
>> >> understanding of computers and how they work you get at a university
>> >> makes
>> >> that much, much easier.
>> >> You'd think having to relearn everything every 5 to 10 years favors
>> >> the self-taught but it doesn't. Most self-taught people know how to
>> >> make something work but they don't necessarily know why.
>> >>
>> >> On 2/19/2013 6:19 PM, Zeeshan Khan wrote:
>> >> > Thanks Denise for that link.
>> >> >
>> >> >   Currently, my focus in on learning how to program and getting a
>> >> > general understanding of what computer science is. Are you a
>> >> > programmer? if so , what kind of programming do you do? How did you
>> >> > pick it up? and how long did it take you to become a good programmer
>> >> > to
>> >> > get a job.
>> >> >
>> >> > Thanks,
>> >> > Zeeshan
>> >> >
>> >> > On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 4:35 AM, Dr. Denise M Robinson
>> >> > <deniserob at gmail.com>wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Zeeshan
>> >> >> Here is a start--just open link and read How can you program if
>> >> >> you're blind? Answered Here<
>> >> >> http://www.yourtechvision.com/content/how-can-you-program-if-youre-
>> >> >> blind-answered-here
>> >> >>>
>> >> >> Denise
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 11:08 PM, Zeeshan Khan <zeek786 at gmail.com>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> Hi all,
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I am trying to learn programming and I am an absolute beginner. As
>> >> >>> a legally blind person I want to ask you all if anyone has learned
>> >> >>> programming and computer science as a blind person. The things is
>> >> >>> I have already gotten my  degree in economics about 3 years ago,
>> >> >>> so I am not
>> >> >> sure
>> >> >>> if I am too late to the field. So how did any of you learn
>> >> >>> computer science/  programming? What resources did you use? how
>> >> >>> long did it take
>> >> >> you
>> >> >>> to become a decent programmer, or at least good enough to land a
>> >> >>> job? I
>> >> >> am
>> >> >>> not trying to go back to school and get a Bachelors as it own't
>> >> >>> really
>> >> >> help
>> >> >>> me, plus I don't have the time as I am working. I really want to
>> >> >>> learn computer science as I am looking to make a career change,
>> >> >>> and the future
>> >> >> is
>> >> >>> in technology. I am aware of many online resources, like
>> >> >>> codecademy, coursera and other free things online, but not sure if
>> >> >>> I should get into these, as I lack a foundation in computer
>> >> >>> science. What is the job market like , in your opinion?
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I really look forward to hearing your thoughts and experiences,
>> >> >>> Thanks,
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> --
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Zeeshan Khan
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> ToiBooks
>> >> >>> www.toibooks.com
>> >> >>> http://www.facebook.com/ToiBooks
>> >> >>> _______________________________________________
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>> >> >>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>> >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> >> >>> for
>> >> >>> nfbcs:
>> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/deniserob%40gma
>> >> >>> il.com
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> *Dr Denise*
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.
>> >> >> CEO, TechVision, LLC
>> >> >> Specialist in Technology/Training/Teaching for blind/low vision
>> >> >> 423-573-6413
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Website with hundreds of informational articles & lessons on PC,
>> >> >> Office products, Mac, iPad/iTools and more, all done with
>> >> >> keystrokes: www.yourtechvision.com
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one
>> >> >> who is doing it." --Chinese Proverb
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Computers are incredibly fast, accurate, and stupid: humans are
>> >> >> incredibly slow, inaccurate and brilliant; together they are
>> >> >> powerful beyond imagination.
>> >> >> --Albert Einstein
>> >> >>
>> >> >> It's kind of fun to do the impossible.
>> >> >> --Walt Disney
>> >> >> _______________________________________________
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>> >> >> for
>> >> >> nfbcs:
>> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/zeek786%40gmail.
>> >> >> com
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
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>> >
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