[nfbcs] bs is bs

Jim Barbour jbar at barcore.com
Wed Feb 20 21:42:12 UTC 2013 

All I can say is that I don't have a degree of any kind and I've
worked as a programmer, designer, site reliability engineer, and
architect for several large companies in the bay area.  You don't need
a degree, but you absolutely need experience, and you need to get an
education somehow.  In my case, I wound up leaving school before
getting my degree.  While in school, I was able to build experience
using workstudy and other student programs.

I don't consider data structures such as trees, lists, and graphs; nor
techniques such as regression or recursion, to be "avanced"
programming.  Knowlege of these constructs are table stakes to do most
programming, including on mobile devices.

Advanced programming would be writing code that runs on large numbers
of computers at once.  For example, crawl and index the internet,
using these 500 servers.

Take Care,

Jim

On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 04:17:58PM -0500, majolls at cox.net wrote:
> I can agree to a point about what some of you are saying.
> 
> 1. If the person already has a BS degree, then no need to go get another one.  Just beef up in the area you're interested in.  But you DO need the BS if you don't have it to get your foot in the door at any major corporation like where I work.
> 
> 2. The BS may be moot if you're just going to program Android or Apple apps provided you're a logical thinker and consider all the user interface type questions that need to be addressed.  Experience goes a long way here and so does a logical thinker.  How will they enter the data?  Do I check for zero in a money field?  You get it.  That's experience.  I have seen in my professional career where some people that got hired without the Bachelors did NOT understand about coding for error handling.  Their code "blew up" in production and made them look real stupid.  But, that can be learned.  It is, however, good not to learn that the hard way, when your app is in production!
> 
> 3. Also, the BS, or maybe the MS, is required if you want to do advanced programming that involves techniques such as recursion, advancing parsing, trees, lists, queues.  You either go get a textbook or take an advanced course for these.  Using these techniques is only a requirement if what you're doing requires, so for the average "loan program", you don't need it.  But if you do, there's no substitute for training, or being able to know what book you need and do a self-study.
> 
> So yes, I'd agree the BS can be bypassed depending on what you want to do.  But if you wanted to do something really sophisticated, you can't beat the right training.
> 
> 
> ---- Jim Barbour <jbar at barcore.com> wrote: 
> > Okay William, let me give you the short version...
> > 
> > No one will hire you because you enjoy programming.  Therefore,
> > take your enjoyment of programming and build some experience.  This
> > will be difficult without some formal training, so look for open
> > source projects, non-profits, or a niche that you know a lot about.
> > 
> > Jim
> > 
> > On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 12:48:44PM -0800, William Grussenmeyer wrote:
> > > blah blah blah... i couldn't even finish reading that email.  Yes, all
> > > you need is to like programming and you'll go far.  You'll learn a
> > > million times more by getting your hands dirty on your own than you'll
> > > ever learn from a textbook or a boring lecture.  You sap all the fun
> > > out of computers.  Boredom is the kiss of death.
> > > bill
> > > 
> > > On 2/20/13, Jim Barbour <jbar at barcore.com> wrote:
> > > > Let's not go from one extreme to the other here.
> > > >
> > > > It is certainly not a requirement to have a degree in computer science
> > > > in order to program.  I didn't finish mine, and know many other people
> > > > who are coders, designers, product managers, and even architects don't
> > > > have a computer science degree.
> > > >
> > > > However, you also can not expect to go from no experience to a
> > > > computer programming job.
> > > >
> > > > Building apps for an iPhone is not known for being a lucrative way to
> > > > make a living. See articles like this one for a bit a flavor
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > <http://www.cultofmac.com/175065/inside-the-app-economy-making-big-money-is-far-from-a-sure-thing/>
> > > >
> > > > It's also worth keeping in mind that building apps for iPhone and
> > > > android will take more time for a blind person.  This is because
> > > > they'll need to use statement based configuration language to layout
> > > > their app, whereas sighted folks can use GUI layout tools.
> > > >
> > > > I'd also say that learning the semantics of a programming language is
> > > > not why people go for CS degrees.  There's a lot to be learned about
> > > > how to do proper user experience designs, how to design and write code
> > > > that is easier to debug and free of common bug types, etc.
> > > >
> > > > Also, don't think for a minute that you can build and app and put it
> > > > in the app store and not market it.  It's very important to think
> > > > about who you want to download your app and what they'll pay for it.
> > > > It's also good to think about who should get your 1.0 version, people
> > > > who aren't afraid of bugs and really want to try out your code,
> > > > V. people who will give your app a very bad name if any bugs are
> > > > found.
> > > >
> > > > None of this requires a CS degree, but it does require some
> > > > experience, some mentorship, a lot of hard work, and reasonable
> > > > expectations about how you'll make money at this venture.
> > > >
> > > > Finally, I don't know what to say to someone who says to me "I like
> > > > computers and want to be a computer programmer."  It implies that you
> > > > can simply do a bit of self study and then start coding up
> > > > applications to run on other people's computers.  You're not very
> > > > likely to find gainful employment that way.
> > > >
> > > > The two best ways to gain employment into the IT industry are...
> > > >
> > > >   1) Doing tech work for a largish.  Handling help desk phone calls,
> > > >      setting up computers, doing computer repair, etc.
> > > >   2) Having knowledge in a specialized niche that you can contribute
> > > >      toward an application.  So, for example, if you're a psychology
> > > >      major and have an idea for a clinical app that hasn't been
> > > >      written.  You could partner with a programmer and come up with a
> > > >      new app that might make money.
> > > >
> > > > I hope this helps,
> > > >
> > > > Jim
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 12:14:20PM -0800, William Grussenmeyer wrote:
> > > >> dont agree at all.  he's all ready got a bachelors in another field.
> > > >> they don't care what your degree is in as long as you can program.
> > > >> and who needs to take courses on assembly language anyway?
> > > >>
> > > >> 80 billion apple apps sold and counting....
> > > >> hook your iPhone to your mac and start learning how to program mobile
> > > >> devices.  no cost to you for distribution and no cost for marketing...
> > > >> hook your app to facebook and twitter.
> > > >>
> > > >> don't waste all your time with this formal stuff.  just make some
> > > >> mobile apps and if they dont make you money, then show them around on
> > > >> your resume to consulting companies that might give you a job online
> > > >> without having to move.
> > > >>
> > > >> bill
> > > >>
> > > >> On 2/20/13, Hyde, David W. (ESC) <david.hyde at wcbvi.k12.wi.us> wrote:
> > > >> > Enough said.
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > -----Original Message-----
> > > >> > From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
> > > >> > majolls at cox.net
> > > >> > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 10:27 AM
> > > >> > To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> > > >> > Subject: Re: [nfbcs] (no subject)
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I couldn't agree more with your advice.  A 4 year B.S. degree is
> > > >> > ABSOLUTELY
> > > >> > a requirement.  There's a reason why a computer science major requires
> > > >> > 36
> > > >> > (or more) hours (10-12 classes) of study.  It takes awhile to get your
> > > >> > head
> > > >> > around how tothink about the computer, how they work, etc... And, there
> > > >> > is
> > > >> > really that much material to learn.  And not only do you learn the
> > > >> > computer
> > > >> > science topics in your degree program, but you also get the math and
> > > >> > english
> > > >> > background you'll need for solving problems and writing you'll need to
> > > >> > communicate.  A college education is really a must.  There is no
> > > >> > substitute.
> > > >> >  Also, if you're on your own, you will probably not think to study a lot
> > > >> > of
> > > >> > the topics you will be exposed to ... computer topics that is.   You
> > > >> > might
> > > >> > think .. I can get a book on programming and learn this .. but there are
> > > >> > a
> > > >> > LOT of fine points that you wouldn't know to study because you don't
> > > >> > know
> > > >> > what needs to be learned.  Bottom line .. there's a lot to learn.  The
> > > >> > degree is the way to go.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > And DO NOT listen to these technical schools that tell you ... "16
> > > >> > months ..
> > > >> > get the education .. get the job".  I've seen family members try the
> > > >> > quick
> > > >> > fix and they got screwed - they were charged $25,000 for what amounted
> > > >> > to a
> > > >> > 2-year degree when they could have gotten that training for 1/4 the cost
> > > >> > at
> > > >> > a Junior College.  And, they didn't get the same level of education.
> > > >> > It's
> > > >> > just not worth it and they're ripping people off.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Also, as pointed out, businesses look at the B.S. degree as a rite of
> > > >> > passage - as the proof that you're qualified.  That's sound advice.  Get
> > > >> > the
> > > >> > degree, then the business knows you're qualified.  Where I program, you
> > > >> > can't even walk in the door unless you don't have a degree.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > ---- "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu> wrote:
> > > >> >> Are you asking for advice on what kind of computer science program to
> > > >> >> get into? Have you been offered the opportunity to get into one of
> > > >> >> these programs many states have to teach blind people computer
> > > >> >> programming?
> > > >> >> Because I think you are going to have a very hard time getting a job
> > > >> >> as a programmer without either a degree or a lot of experience.  I
> > > >> >> wouldn't say its totally impossible but darn near it. Very few
> > > >> >> companies would even let you pay them to work on their computers
> > > >> >> unless you have proven skills. You wouldn't  let a self-taught doctor
> > > >> >> operate on you, would you?
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> There is a huge amount of competition even for the jobs that just
> > > >> >> require an Associate Degree. Any job that doesn't even require an
> > > >> >> Associate Degree is going to have bzillions of applicants. In fact, I
> > > >> >> doubt there even are such jobs. I hate to be so negative but I don't
> > > >> >> think you can get a job just by teaching yourself programming even if
> > > >> >> you are really good. You have to have some way to document that you
> > > >> >> know what you are doing or you are going to have a very, very hard
> > > >> >> time finding a job.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> IMO, the major benefit of the state-run programs is that then you are
> > > >> >> already in the system and they can find you a position at some place
> > > >> >> as an affirmative action hire.  Don't knock it -- anything to get your
> > > >> >> foot in the door works.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> But if you can swing it, I highly recommend a BS degree or better.
> > > >> >> There will be a lot of people who tell you it doesn't matter but
> > > >> >> they're wrong. First of all, it opens a lot of doors that would
> > > >> >> otherwise be closed. Secondly, programming is a tough job in one
> > > >> >> particular way -- every few years the paradigm changes completely and
> > > >> >> you have to relearn everything you ever knew. But the basic
> > > >> >> understanding of computers and how they work you get at a university
> > > >> >> makes
> > > >> >> that much, much easier.
> > > >> >> You'd think having to relearn everything every 5 to 10 years favors
> > > >> >> the self-taught but it doesn't. Most self-taught people know how to
> > > >> >> make something work but they don't necessarily know why.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> On 2/19/2013 6:19 PM, Zeeshan Khan wrote:
> > > >> >> > Thanks Denise for that link.
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> >   Currently, my focus in on learning how to program and getting a
> > > >> >> > general understanding of what computer science is. Are you a
> > > >> >> > programmer? if so , what kind of programming do you do? How did you
> > > >> >> > pick it up? and how long did it take you to become a good programmer
> > > >> >> > to
> > > >> >> > get a job.
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > Thanks,
> > > >> >> > Zeeshan
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 4:35 AM, Dr. Denise M Robinson
> > > >> >> > <deniserob at gmail.com>wrote:
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> >> Zeeshan
> > > >> >> >> Here is a start--just open link and read How can you program if
> > > >> >> >> you're blind? Answered Here<
> > > >> >> >> http://www.yourtechvision.com/content/how-can-you-program-if-youre-
> > > >> >> >> blind-answered-here
> > > >> >> >>>
> > > >> >> >> Denise
> > > >> >> >>
> > > >> >> >> On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 11:08 PM, Zeeshan Khan <zeek786 at gmail.com>
> > > >> >> >> wrote:
> > > >> >> >>
> > > >> >> >>> Hi all,
> > > >> >> >>>
> > > >> >> >>> I am trying to learn programming and I am an absolute beginner. As
> > > >> >> >>> a legally blind person I want to ask you all if anyone has learned
> > > >> >> >>> programming and computer science as a blind person. The things is
> > > >> >> >>> I have already gotten my  degree in economics about 3 years ago,
> > > >> >> >>> so I am not
> > > >> >> >> sure
> > > >> >> >>> if I am too late to the field. So how did any of you learn
> > > >> >> >>> computer science/  programming? What resources did you use? how
> > > >> >> >>> long did it take
> > > >> >> >> you
> > > >> >> >>> to become a decent programmer, or at least good enough to land a
> > > >> >> >>> job? I
> > > >> >> >> am
> > > >> >> >>> not trying to go back to school and get a Bachelors as it own't
> > > >> >> >>> really
> > > >> >> >> help
> > > >> >> >>> me, plus I don't have the time as I am working. I really want to
> > > >> >> >>> learn computer science as I am looking to make a career change,
> > > >> >> >>> and the future
> > > >> >> >> is
> > > >> >> >>> in technology. I am aware of many online resources, like
> > > >> >> >>> codecademy, coursera and other free things online, but not sure if
> > > >> >> >>> I should get into these, as I lack a foundation in computer
> > > >> >> >>> science. What is the job market like , in your opinion?
> > > >> >> >>>
> > > >> >> >>> I really look forward to hearing your thoughts and experiences,
> > > >> >> >>> Thanks,
> > > >> >> >>>
> > > >> >> >>>
> > > >> >> >>> --
> > > >> >> >>>
> > > >> >> >>> Zeeshan Khan
> > > >> >> >>>
> > > >> >> >>> ToiBooks
> > > >> >> >>> www.toibooks.com
> > > >> >> >>> http://www.facebook.com/ToiBooks
> > > >> >> >>> _______________________________________________
> > > >> >> >>> nfbcs mailing list
> > > >> >> >>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> > > >> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
> > > >> >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> > > >> >> >>> for
> > > >> >> >>> nfbcs:
> > > >> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/deniserob%40gma
> > > >> >> >>> il.com
> > > >> >> >>>
> > > >> >> >>
> > > >> >> >>
> > > >> >> >>
> > > >> >> >> --
> > > >> >> >> *Dr Denise*
> > > >> >> >>
> > > >> >> >> Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.
> > > >> >> >> CEO, TechVision, LLC
> > > >> >> >> Specialist in Technology/Training/Teaching for blind/low vision
> > > >> >> >> 423-573-6413
> > > >> >> >>
> > > >> >> >> Website with hundreds of informational articles & lessons on PC,
> > > >> >> >> Office products, Mac, iPad/iTools and more, all done with
> > > >> >> >> keystrokes: www.yourtechvision.com
> > > >> >> >>
> > > >> >> >> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one
> > > >> >> >> who is doing it." --Chinese Proverb
> > > >> >> >>
> > > >> >> >> Computers are incredibly fast, accurate, and stupid: humans are
> > > >> >> >> incredibly slow, inaccurate and brilliant; together they are
> > > >> >> >> powerful beyond imagination.
> > > >> >> >> --Albert Einstein
> > > >> >> >>
> > > >> >> >> It's kind of fun to do the impossible.
> > > >> >> >> --Walt Disney
> > > >> >> >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> >> >> nfbcs mailing list
> > > >> >> >> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> > > >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
> > > >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> > > >> >> >> for
> > > >> >> >> nfbcs:
> > > >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/zeek786%40gmail.
> > > >> >> >> com
> > > >> >> >>
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> >> nfbcs mailing list
> > > >> >> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> > > >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
> > > >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > > >> >> nfbcs:
> > > >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/majolls%40cox.net
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > _______________________________________________
> > > >> > nfbcs mailing list
> > > >> > nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> > > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
> > > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > > >> > nfbcs:
> > > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/david.hyde%40wcbvi.k12.wi.us
> > > >> >
> > > >> > _______________________________________________
> > > >> > nfbcs mailing list
> > > >> > nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> > > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
> > > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > > >> > nfbcs:
> > > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/wdg31415%40gmail.com
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> nfbcs mailing list
> > > >> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> > > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
> > > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > > >> nfbcs:
> > > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/jbar%40barcore.com
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > nfbcs mailing list
> > > > nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
> > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > > > nfbcs:
> > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/wdg31415%40gmail.com
> > > >
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > nfbcs mailing list
> > > nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nfbcs:
> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/jbar%40barcore.com
> > > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > nfbcs mailing list
> > nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nfbcs:
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/majolls%40cox.net
>

More information about the NFBCS mailing list