[nfbcs] Is Life Fair or Inaccessible Training - again
Nancy Coffman
nancylc at sprynet.com
Wed Feb 20 13:26:50 UTC 2013
Are sighted people who hire assistants successful? To me it depends on what the assistant does.
Nancy Coffman
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 19, 2013, at 5:57 PM, Jim Barbour <jbar at barcore.com> wrote:
> Where did this statement about "using assistants" means you can't
> claim to be successful?
>
> If I hire and manage readers, which is what assistants are, why wouldn't that qualify as me being successful?
>
> If I hire and manage drivers, which is what assistants are, why would that qualify as me being successful?
>
> Jim
>
> On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 05:51:20PM -0600, Bryan Schulz wrote:
>> hi,
>>
>> this is true and swapping/trading job tasks helps but it's also not right
>> for someone to claim to be successful when they had an assistant for 30
>> years.
>> Bryan Schulz
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Wunder" <gwunder at earthlink.net>
>> To: "'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 12:39 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Is Life Fair or Inaccessible Training - again
>>
>>
>>> Hi, John. I like what you are saying, which I interpret to mean, "Don't
>>> blame the victim for being the victim."
>>>
>>> I know I have been extremely lucky; I did not determine my level of
>>> motivation, my intelligence, or whether or not I was born with pleasing or
>>> repulsive looks. For what I have I can only be grateful.
>>>
>>> Admitting all of this, I do worry that folks are not doing today what many
>>> did in our day to find jobs. Like Steve and Mike, I fear that
>>> accessibility
>>> has come to mean what the computer and I can do together, and not what I,
>>> along with a computer and perhaps a person, can do.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John G. Heim
>>> Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 3:38 PM
>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Is Life Fair or Inaccessiable Training - again
>>>
>>> Well, not to dispute anything you say, Steve, but it's not particularly
>>> relevant to the topic at hand. I brought up the fairness issue because I
>>> felt the list was getting dangerously close to blaming blind people
>>> themselves for being unemployed. There is a huge, huge difference between
>>> advising people that they should be prepared to put in extra hours to keep
>>> up with their sighted counterparts and telling them it's their own fault
>>> if
>>> they can't keep up.
>>>
>>> I'll be the first to admit that some blind people just need a kick in the
>>> fanny. But that's a tiny minority. And it steams my wheaties when those of
>>> us who've made it act superior to those who haven't. That hurts us all.
>>> Whether we like it or not, we're all tied together to a great degree. When
>>> any of us fails, it makes it harder for the others.
>>> There is no better example of a rising tide lifting all boats than with
>>> disability rights.
>>>
>>> On 2/18/2013 2:42 PM, Steve Jacobson wrote:
>>>> John,
>>>>
>>>> This topic of the fairness of life is one that I have thought about a
>>>> good deal so I could not resist responding. To start with, though, I
>>>> readily accept that blindness is a major barrier to getting and
>>>> keeping a job. It is also a major adjustment for those who had vision
>>>> and lost it, although there are adjustments that those of us who have
>>>> been blind have to make as well. At least for me, saying that life isn't
>>> fair for anyone is not a means to discount the struggles of the unemployed
>>> blind person. However, it does define how I look at aspects of life. I
>>> do
>>> not think that saying life is not fair to anyone is saying that it is
>>> equally unfair. Certainly there are those who experience less unfairness
>>> than others.
>>>>
>>>> Still, I would rather be blind in Minnesota than be a sighted woman in
>>>> many countries where women are denied self-determination for religious
>>>> or cultural reasons. Perhaps that seems like a no-brainer, but life
>>>> isn't fair to them. There are other segments of the world's population
>>> with whom I would not wish to trade places, even if it meant having
>>> vision.
>>> I could go down a list of people who have normal vision with whom I am
>>> acquainted but would not wish to trade places even if it meant getting
>>> their
>>> sight.
>>>> I can say that if I had normal vision and all other things were the
>>>> same, I would likely have an easier time doing my current job and
>>>> perhaps would do it better. However, it is a large assumption to say
>>>> that all other things would be the same. Had I been sighted, I would
>>>> very likely have spent time serving in Vietnam, for example, and that
>>>> changed a lot of people, mostly for the worse. I may not have stuck with
>>> college, not feeling as strongly that it was important for employment. In
>>> short, I won't tell you that I never wish I had sight, but I can honestly
>>> say that I do not take it for granted that I would be better off if I had
>>> not been born blind.
>>>>
>>>> It affects how I look at what we need from society. I don't think
>>>> society can make life fair for everyone by compensating for all of the
>>>> unfairness because there are many different kinds of unfairness.
>>>> However, I believe it is in society's interest as well as our interest to
>>> try to make things accessible, for example, because it means we can more
>>> likely contribute to society. This certainly benefits me, but it benefits
>>> society as well as a whole.
>>>>
>>>> It is far too easy to single blindness out when considering what is
>>>> fair or not fair and to make the unfairness a reason not to do what
>>>> one can to deal with one's blindness. Yet, there is truly unfairness
>>>> in how blindness is viewed by the public, and that certainly plays a
>>>> large role in our high unemployment rate. How I am viewed by society can
>>> change and I can even play a role in making that change. Nothing
>>> currently
>>> available will change the fact that I am blind, though, so I see myself as
>>> needing to make the most of what I am and not spend too much time wishing
>>> I
>>> were something different.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, 18 Feb 2013 11:12:30 -0600, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> But it's not true that life is unfair for everyone. The vast
>>>>> majority of people never have to overcome a challenge like blindness.
>>>>
>>>>> This was driven home to me a few years ago when I wanted to change jobs.
>>>>> Until I went blind, I had never been turned down for a job I'd
>>>>> interviewed for. I mean that literally. Since I got my degree, I had
>>>>> never been turned down after interviewing for a job. Sometimes I had
>>>>> several offers at once but I had never been turned down. The
>>>>> discrimination I faced after I went blind came as quite a shock to
>>>>> me. I couldn't believe the way most people paid way, way more
>>>>> attention to my disability than my resume. One woman outright refused
>>>>> to interview me because she didn't believe I could use a computer at
>>>>> all. And that was for a job that was, frankly, beneath me. Of course,
>>>>> I just passed that woman off as an idiot. But if I had really needed
>>>>> that job, that would have hurt.
>>>>
>>>>> In my opinion, this lack of empathy those of us who have made it show
>>>>> toward those who have not is a huge problem. I think it greatly
>>>>> undermines our ability to get anything done. My opinion is that those
>>>>> of us who have made it are obligated to try to make it easier for the
>>>>> next guy. After all, oour paths were smoothed by those who came
>>>>> before us. I can show you messages where I've criticized kenneth
>>>>> Jernigan tremendously. I have huge problems with a lot of things he said
>>> and did.
>>>>> But there is no question that none of us would be where we are
>>>>> without him and one heck of a lot of other people like him.
>>>>
>>>>> On 2/17/2013 5:59 PM, david hertweck wrote:
>>>>>> You are 100% correct, but this is true for every one regardless if
>>>>>> they have a handicap or not.
>>>>>> Who ever said life is fare or even should be fare. It is a matter
>>>>>> of how much do we want to have a job.
>>>>>> I get what you are saying it makes me very angry when it is such a
>>>>>> pain to access something that is trivial for a sighted person.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One of the ideas I am playing with is how to show companies how they
>>>>>> can make a larger profit by making their products accessible.
>>>>>> Requiring this by law only gets you so far.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Another idea there seams to be a large amount of talent on this
>>>>>> list, if some one has an need lets jointly try and solve it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> thanks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: John G. Heim
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 4:12 PM
>>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Inaccessiable Training - again
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't mean to question the value of the advice given below. It's
>>>>>> all true, of course. But lets not start blaming blind people for
>>>>>> accessibility problems. The truth is that to compete against sighted
>>>>>> people, you often have to be even more mentally tough and work
>>>>>> harder than they do. But lets face it, that's not really fair.
>>>>>> And there is another side to this, you can do everything right and
>>>>>> still fail. You might work your tail off establishing a career and
>>>>>> then if the vendors of technology products you use make them
>>>>>> inaccessible, well you are screwed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would never question the value of tips on how a blind person can
>>>>>> be the perfect employee. That is one necessary ingredient in
>>>>>> building a successful career. You can't succeed without doing the
>>>>>> thngs listed below. But they don't guarantee success.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Feb 15, 2013, at 8:07 PM, Gabe Vega Via Iphone4S wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hell yeah! This post states everything I think. And I believe this
>>>>>>> is what blind people forget all the time. Maybe you all should read
>>>>>>> this over and over and over again. Thank you for this post.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gabe Vega
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>> (623) 565-9357
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Feb 15, 2013, at 6:45 PM, "david hertweck"
>>>>>>> <david.hertweck at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As a blind engineer and now a manager working for a large company
>>>>>>>> I found the best approach is:
>>>>>>>> 1. Try and find a way to do your job, be creative, think out of
>>>>>>>> the box, make it work.
>>>>>>>> 2. Put in extra hours. I know a lot of sighted engineers if they
>>>>>>>> are not as effective as other people they put in the extra time so
>>>>>>>> we should be willing to do this.
>>>>>>>> 3. Remember everyone has tasks to complete and completing yours
>>>>>>>> can not interfere with others.
>>>>>>>> 4. Before asking for help have an exact plan for how can that
>>>>>>>> person help you. What does not work is to ask someone to make "X"
>>>>>>>> accessible for you.
>>>>>>>> 5. Never "complain" find answers. It is super to "complain" in
>>>>>>>> this forum but not at work.
>>>>>>>> 6. Always remember your manager most likely has more work and
>>>>>>>> certainly more responsibilities than you do, so you should never
>>>>>>>> add to them for accessibility problems.
>>>>>>>> 7. Always remember you are there for the company not the company
>>>>>>>> for you.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> thanks
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> through out my work life
>>>>>>>> and now as a manager of course they are not overwellming
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: majolls at cox.net
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 10:50 AM
>>>>>>>> To: nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Inaccessiable Training - again
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Gary and all
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think you hit the nail on the head. To what end do you
>>>>>>>> "complain"? If you don't, you don't get anywhere. And if you do
>>>>>>>> (too much) you are perceived as a burden ... and managers would
>>>>>>>> rather not deal with you and get someone else that doesn't have
>>>>>>>> the requirement that you do. I work for a large corporation. I
>>>>>>>> found that while managers can be sympathetic, others just don't
>>>>>>>> care. it really depends on your luck of the draw regarding what
>>>>>>>> manager you do get.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I can remember voicing concern about sitting in a large room for a
>>>>>>>> presentation where they had big monitors up on the wall. A
>>>>>>>> presenter would be running his demo, and the display was up on the
>>>>>>>> "big screen". Unfortunately, I couldn't read the big screen. I
>>>>>>>> was just too far away and I'm just too blind. When I voiced
>>>>>>>> concern, what I mostly got was "just do your best" ... which was
>>> absolutely no help.
>>>>>>>> I finally came up with the idea ... "just run a data feed to a
>>>>>>>> separate monitor that can be placed on a table that I can sit
>>>>>>>> close to". That idea really worked, but it took me ... not them
>>>>>>>> ... to come up with the idea. The managers ... who are supposed
>>>>>>>> to help you ... didn't have a clue what I needed, or what might
>>>>>>>> work. And, if I complained too much, they just said ... "do your
>>>>>>>> best" and sort of turned a deaf ear.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And as far as going to bat for you ... trying to get the
>>>>>>>> application changed so it's accessible ... I think most managers
>>>>>>>> have priorities on what they have to get done. When you require
>>>>>>>> someone to sit with you (meaning time and money) or when you ask
>>>>>>>> your manager to help you ... they'll do it as long as it isn't
>>>>>>>> excessive ... meaning as long as it doesn't take a lot of time and
>>>>>>>> money. If it does, you're kind of on your own. And as far as
>>>>>>>> them modifying software to be accessible ... that's only an option
>>>>>>>> if your company doesn't have a lot of other "business requirements"
>>> they have to get done first.
>>>>>>>> Where I'm at, that's always the case.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I guess we all just need to be experts on Accessibility
>>>>>>>> programming so we can do it ourselves. Wish I had better things
>>>>>>>> to say, but I've only had 35 years of experience in dealing with
>>>>>>>> this. And it doesn't sound like the federal government is any
>>>>>>>> better than private industry. People (managers) are people no
>>>>>>>> matter where you go I suppose.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/david.hertweck%
>>>>>>>> 40sbcglobal.net
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/theblindtech%40
>>>>>>>> gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/jheim%40math.wis
>>>>>>> c.edu
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/david.hertweck%40
>>>>>> sbcglobal.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/jheim%40math.wisc
>>>>>> .edu
>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nfbcs:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40v
>>>>> isi.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nfbcs:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/jheim%40math.wisc.e
>>>> du
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nfbcs:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/gwunder%40earthlink.net
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nfbcs:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nfbcs mailing list
>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nfbcs:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/jbar%40barcore.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> nfbcs mailing list
> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nfbcs:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/nancylc%40sprynet.com
More information about the NFBCS
mailing list