[nfbcs] bs is bs

Thu Feb 21 13:43:23 UTC 2013

Mike, I totally agree with everything you have said. I have been in programming all my life. I hope to soon take the Java certification examination. I work for USDA in Kansas City. I have been there for 39 years. I worked for the City of Kansas City Missouri for my first three years. I am one of the lucky ones. My federal employment has been great. I need to take this exam just to keep up with everyone. New hires are required to have this certification. The preparation is exhausting. I now am getting my feet wet in Java Script, CSS, and of course HTML. If I were applying for a new position I would not even qualify. The amount of constant study is incredible. I don't mean to be a wet blanket, but you need to go into this with your eyes wide open. The amount of extra work required is growing each year.

Susie Stanzel

-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike Jolls
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 6:16 AM
To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs

I've been in the industry and at the same company for the last 35 years - something I understand is rather unique these days.  As a result, I'm not completely aware of every technology that every IT firm is looking for.  I can share what our company expects developers to know, and offer some advice on what a person should do to prepare for a programming job.

1. Learn web technology.
Our company is all about web technology.  A few years back all of our systems were built on the client/server architecture, but they are re-writing everything using web technology.  Some of the technologies you would want to know (and this list is not exhaustive) are HTML/Java/CSS/Javascript/Servlets/Java Server Pages (JSP)/JDBC/SQL/XML/Tomcat.  Every technology I have mentioned here is used to develop web applications.  HTML/Javascript is used to develop the user interface that runs in the browser on the client workstation, and Java/Servlets/Java Server Pages/JDBC/SQL/XML at the server level.  If you want to understand how web applications work from the client browser to the back-end server, learning all these technologies is a must.  The downside is that there is a significant investment of time.  You're looking at 6 months at least, and probably a year, depending on how in-depth you want to get.

2. Learn Object Oriented programming
Today's systems are generally written using an object oriented approach.
Object oriented programming can be accomplished with any language that is architected with OO in mind.  Our shop uses Java for most programming work and it does OO pretty well.  That would be a good first choice.  C++ is another OO language, although our shop doesn't use that as heavily as Java.
And to code in Java, you'll need an editor that allows you to load/save/edit/compile Java programs.  I'd recommend Eclipse.  It's free, just like Java.  That's one of the big reasons our company went with Java and Eclipse.  They are mature technologies and they're free.  You can download them.  You'll also need a good book on Java that discusses many of the technologies I've mentioned above.  The Deitel and Deitel series on Java How to Program is a good starting book.  It gives you a fairly thorough treatment of Java, and deals with OO/JDBC (databases)/JSP/Servlets/Data Structures.  It doesn't deal with HTML/XML/SQL in depth, but you can get that elsewhere.

3. Experience
To get a job at a company without a CS degree ... well I'm not sure if you could do that at our company.  Perhaps other companies are different.  Our company REQUIRES at least a degree in something, and I'm guessing a CS degree for candidates who want to get a job in IT as programmers.  I would suggest calling HR departments to find out a consensus.  If you don't have a CS degree, then experience is your next best bet.  And I don't mean getting the Deitel book, writing their sample programs, and then saying "I'm a programmer".  I mean, write real applications for your non-profits that give you experience in real-world problems so that when you get to the company you REALLY want to work for, you have real-world experience to show them.

4. Expect the technology to change
And don't forget, this is just a starting point, and the technology will change on you within 2-5 years.  Even after you learn all of this, expect new technologies to come along which will require you to learn some or all of these all over again, or learn updates to these technologies.  If, due to vision issues, you're not the fastest guy on the block, expect to have to learn the new technologies on your own time, at home.  So instead of working a 40 hour week, you may be looking at a 60 hour week just to stay even with everyone else.  I'm a slow reader.  I only read about 130 words per minute print, whereas a normally sighted person reads about 250 words per minute.
I'm always having to read something, and it takes me twice as long.  So in a way, I hate this job because I feel like I'm always playing catch-up and having to spend time at home learning new stuff.  I like the challenges and the problems I solve, but it would be so much easier if I could read as fast as everyone else and take less time.  However, that's just not the hand I was dealt.

Wow, that was a lot to type, and so that this reply isn't more of a novel than it already is, I'll stop there.  Does that help?

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Zeeshan Khan
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 7:19 PM
To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs

@Jim
Thanks for the input. I agree that a CS is probably not just to teach semantics, I am sure they teach a lot more. But my question is, I am currently wokring and if i try to go back and get my BS in CS, it will take me 3-4 years, since I will be doing it part time. Is that actually worth it in that situation?
I am currently a project manager on a small iOS App project, kids storybooks Apps to be specific and I agree that it is something you cannot make a living out of unless you have the next angry birds or something like that.

As for your 2 suggestions, one of them I am exposed to, but the other one about working in a large company help desk environment, would be difficult to secure as I have no tech support experience, so most companies will probably not hire.

What specific steps do you think I can take  on how to get started on learning programming. I am currently goign through the free stanford online course called programming methodology, a very basic intro to programming.

@ amjollis, I don't have a BS , I have a BA in Economics. Open Source projects, and non profit as mentioned by Jim owuld be good way to start. In your opinion, how should I learn if I can't do a BS and yes my ultimate goal is to land a job as an entry level programmer, just to get my foot in the door and of course, I will keep learning as tiem goes on.

@John
Right you definitely need either experience or a BS degree to get you in.
It sounds like I will need ot go back to school and spend 3-4 years until I can get into this field, but I feel that is too long to get into a field.
For now my goal is ot learn programming and be proficient enough to land an entry level programmer job. Open Source projects and non profits are a start, what other specific steps I can take to start learning and / or gaining epxerience?

Thanks again everyone!
Zeeshan

On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Bryan Schulz <b.schulz at sbcglobal.net>wrote:

> hi,
>
> just yesterday, i was with a group listening to a f500 hr manager and
> he said if the requirement for a job says b.s. in iT, you are wasting
> your and the company's time even applying if your b.s degree is in
something else.
> Bryan Schulz
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Wunder"
> <gwunder at earthlink.net>
> To: "'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 4:04 PM
>
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>
>
>  Jim, your explanation, both here and in your previous post, is
> relevant
>> whether we want to hear it or not. We can't wish a thing to be true
>> and then be mad at the guy who offers to give us his take as a person
>> working competitively in the field
>>
>> For me what you have tried to communicate is gold. I interpret your
>> messages to be: , "Here is my real-world experience. This is how
>> people get to be programmers. This is why things may not be
>> accessible. Here is why people code as they do. Here is how a project
>> gets started and how folks are rewarded.
>>
>> All of this detail I thank you for. I can't solve a problem if I
>> don't understand it. Thank you so much for showing the patience and
>> bringing the experience we need if we're to really discuss and
understand.
>>
>> Gary
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.**org
>> <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>] On Behalf Of Jim Barbour
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 2:56 PM
>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>
>> Okay William, let me give you the short version...
>>
>> No one will hire you because you enjoy programming.  Therefore, take
>> your enjoyment of programming and build some experience.  This will
>> be difficult without some formal training, so look for open source
>> projects, non-profits, or a niche that you know a lot about.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 12:48:44PM -0800, William Grussenmeyer wrote:
>>
>>> blah blah blah... i couldn't even finish reading that email.  Yes,
>>> all you need is to like programming and you'll go far.  You'll learn
>>> a million times more by getting your hands dirty on your own than
>>> you'll ever learn from a textbook or a boring lecture.  You sap all
>>> the fun out of computers.  Boredom is the kiss of death.
>>> bill
>>>
>>> On 2/20/13, Jim Barbour <jbar at barcore.com> wrote:
>>> > Let's not go from one extreme to the other here.
>>> >
>>> > It is certainly not a requirement to have a degree in computer
>>> > science in order to program.  I didn't finish mine, and know many
>>> > other people who are coders, designers, product managers, and even
>>> > architects don't have a computer science degree.
>>> >
>>> > However, you also can not expect to go from no experience to a
>>> > computer programming job.
>>> >
>>> > Building apps for an iPhone is not known for being a lucrative way
>>> > to make a living. See articles like this one for a bit a flavor
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > <http://www.cultofmac.com/**175065/inside-the-app-economy-**
>>> making-big-m<http://www.cultofmac.com/175065/inside-the-app-economy-
>>> making-big-m>
>>> > oney-is-far-from-a-sure-thing/**>
>>> >
>>> > It's also worth keeping in mind that building apps for iPhone and
>>> > android will take more time for a blind person.  This is because
>>> > they'll need to use statement based configuration language to
>>> > layout their app, whereas sighted folks can use GUI layout tools.
>>> >
>>> > I'd also say that learning the semantics of a programming language
>>> > is not why people go for CS degrees.  There's a lot to be learned
>>> > about how to do proper user experience designs, how to design and
>>> > write code that is easier to debug and free of common bug types, etc.
>>> >
>>> > Also, don't think for a minute that you can build and app and put
>>> > it in the app store and not market it.  It's very important to
>>> > think about who you want to download your app and what they'll pay
>>> > for
it.
>>> > It's also good to think about who should get your 1.0 version,
>>> > people who aren't afraid of bugs and really want to try out your
>>> > code, V. people who will give your app a very bad name if any bugs
>>> > are found.
>>> >
>>> > None of this requires a CS degree, but it does require some
>>> > experience, some mentorship, a lot of hard work, and reasonable
>>> > expectations about how you'll make money at this venture.
>>> >
>>> > Finally, I don't know what to say to someone who says to me "I
>>> > like computers and want to be a computer programmer."  It implies
>>> > that you can simply do a bit of self study and then start coding
>>> > up applications to run on other people's computers.  You're not
>>> > very likely to find gainful employment that way.
>>> >
>>> > The two best ways to gain employment into the IT industry are...
>>> >
>>> >   1) Doing tech work for a largish.  Handling help desk phone calls,
>>> >      setting up computers, doing computer repair, etc.
>>> >   2) Having knowledge in a specialized niche that you can contribute
>>> >      toward an application.  So, for example, if you're a psychology
>>> >      major and have an idea for a clinical app that hasn't been
>>> >      written.  You could partner with a programmer and come up with a
>>> >      new app that might make money.
>>> >
>>> > I hope this helps,
>>> >
>>> > Jim
>>> >
>>> > On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 12:14:20PM -0800, William Grussenmeyer wrote:
>>> >> dont agree at all.  he's all ready got a bachelors in another field.
>>> >> they don't care what your degree is in as long as you can program.
>>> >> and who needs to take courses on assembly language anyway?
>>> >>
>>> >> 80 billion apple apps sold and counting....
>>> >> hook your iPhone to your mac and start learning how to program
>>> >> mobile devices.  no cost to you for distribution and no cost for
>>>
>> marketing...
>>
>>> >> hook your app to facebook and twitter.
>>> >>
>>> >> don't waste all your time with this formal stuff.  just make some
>>> >> mobile apps and if they dont make you money, then show them
>>> >> around on your resume to consulting companies that might give you
>>> >> a job online without having to move.
>>> >>
>>> >> bill
>>> >>
>>> >> On 2/20/13, Hyde, David W. (ESC) <david.hyde at wcbvi.k12.wi.us> wrote:
>>> >> > Enough said.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > -----Original Message-----
>>> >> > From: nfbcs
>>> >> > [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.**org<nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>]
>>> On Behalf Of
>>> >> > majolls at cox.net
>>> >> > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 10:27 AM
>>> >> > To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>> >> > Subject: Re: [nfbcs] (no subject)
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I couldn't agree more with your advice.  A 4 year B.S. degree
>>> >> > is ABSOLUTELY a requirement.  There's a reason why a computer
>>> >> > science major requires
>>> >> > 36
>>> >> > (or more) hours (10-12 classes) of study.  It takes awhile to
>>> >> > get your head around how tothink about the computer, how they
>>> >> > work, etc... And, there is really that much material to learn.
>>> >> > And not only do you learn the computer science topics in your
>>> >> > degree program, but you also get the math and english
>>> >> > background you'll need for solving problems and writing you'll
>>> >> > need
to communicate.
>>> >> > A college education is really a must.  There is no substitute.
>>> >> >  Also, if you're on your own, you will probably not think to
>>> >> > study a lot of the topics you will be exposed to ... computer
>>> >> > topics that is.
You
>>> >> > might
>>> >> > think .. I can get a book on programming and learn this .. but
>>> >> > there are a LOT of fine points that you wouldn't know to study
>>> >> > because you don't know what needs to be learned.  Bottom line ..
>>> >> > there's a lot to learn.  The degree is the way to go.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > And DO NOT listen to these technical schools that tell you ...
>>> >> > "16 months ..
>>> >> > get the education .. get the job".  I've seen family members
>>> >> > try the quick fix and they got screwed - they were charged
>>> >> > $25,000 for what amounted to a 2-year degree when they could
>>> >> > have gotten that training for 1/4 the cost at a Junior College.
>>> >> > And, they didn't get the same level of education.
>>> >> > It's
>>> >> > just not worth it and they're ripping people off.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Also, as pointed out, businesses look at the B.S. degree as a
>>> >> > rite of passage - as the proof that you're qualified.  That's
>>> >> > sound advice.  Get the degree, then the business knows you're
>>> >> > qualified.  Where I program, you can't even walk in the door
>>> >> > unless you don't have a degree.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > ---- "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu> wrote:
>>> >> >> Are you asking for advice on what kind of computer science
>>> >> >> program to get into? Have you been offered the opportunity to
>>> >> >> get into one of these programs many states have to teach blind
>>> >> >> people computer programming?
>>> >> >> Because I think you are going to have a very hard time getting
>>> >> >> a job as a programmer without either a degree or a lot of
>>> >> >> experience.  I wouldn't say its totally impossible but darn
>>> >> >> near it. Very few companies would even let you pay them to
>>> >> >> work on their computers unless you have proven skills. You
>>> >> >> wouldn't  let a self-taught doctor operate on you, would you?
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> There is a huge amount of competition even for the jobs that
>>> >> >> just require an Associate Degree. Any job that doesn't even
>>> >> >> require an Associate Degree is going to have bzillions of
>>> >> >> applicants. In fact, I doubt there even are such jobs. I hate
>>> >> >> to be so negative but I don't think you can get a job just by
>>> >> >> teaching yourself programming even if you are really good. You
>>> >> >> have to have some way to document that you know what you are
>>> >> >> doing or you are going to have a very, very hard time finding
>>> >> >> a >>
>>> >> job.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> IMO, the major benefit of the state-run programs is that then
>>> >> >> you are already in the system and they can find you a position
>>> >> >> at some place as an affirmative action hire.  Don't knock it
>>> >> >> -- >>
>>> >> anything to get your foot in the door works.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> But if you can swing it, I highly recommend a BS degree or better.
>>> >> >> There will be a lot of people who tell you it doesn't matter
>>> >> >> but they're wrong. First of all, it opens a lot of doors that
>>> >> >> would otherwise be closed. Secondly, programming is a tough
>>> >> >> job in one particular way -- every few years the paradigm
>>> >> >> changes completely and you have to relearn everything you ever
>>> >> >> knew. But the basic understanding of computers and how they
>>> >> >> work you get at a university makes that much, much easier.
>>> >> >> You'd think having to relearn everything every 5 to 10 years
>>> >> >> favors the self-taught but it doesn't. Most self-taught people
>>> >> >> know how to make something work but they don't necessarily
>>> >> >> know >>
>>> >> why.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> On 2/19/2013 6:19 PM, Zeeshan Khan wrote:
>>> >> >> > Thanks Denise for that link.
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >   Currently, my focus in on learning how to program and
>>> >> >> > getting a general understanding of what computer science is.
>>> >> >> > Are you a programmer? if so , what kind of programming do
>>> >> >> > you do? How did you pick it up? and how long did it take you
>>> >> >> > to become a good programmer to get a job.
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > Thanks,
>>> >> >> > Zeeshan
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 4:35 AM, Dr. Denise M Robinson
>>> >> >> > <deniserob at gmail.com>wrote:
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> Zeeshan
>>> >> >> >> Here is a start--just open link and read How can you
>>> >> >> >> program if you're blind? Answered Here<
>>> >> >> >> http://www.yourtechvision.com/**content/how-can-you-program
>>> >> >> >> -**
>>> if- <http://www.yourtechvision.com/content/how-can-you-program-if->
>>> >> >> >> youre-
>>> >> >> >> blind-answered-here
>>> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> Denise
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 11:08 PM, Zeeshan Khan
>>> >> >> >> <zeek786 at gmail.com>
>>> >> >> >> wrote:
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>> Hi all,
>>> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >>> I am trying to learn programming and I am an absolute
>>> >> >> >>> beginner. As a legally blind person I want to ask you all
>>> >> >> >>> if anyone has learned programming and computer science as
>>> >> >> >>> a blind person. The things is I have already gotten my
>>> >> >> >>> degree in economics about 3 years ago, so I am not
>>> >> >> >> sure
>>> >> >> >>> if I am too late to the field. So how did any of you learn
>>> >> >> >>> computer science/  programming? What resources did you use?
>>> >> >> >>> how long did it take
>>> >> >> >> you
>>> >> >> >>> to become a decent programmer, or at least good enough to
>>> >> >> >>> land a job? I
>>> >> >> >> am
>>> >> >> >>> not trying to go back to school and get a Bachelors as it
>>> >> >> >>> own't really
>>> >> >> >> help
>>> >> >> >>> me, plus I don't have the time as I am working. I really
>>> >> >> >>> want to learn computer science as I am looking to make a
>>> >> >> >>> career change, and the future
>>> >> >> >> is
>>> >> >> >>> in technology. I am aware of many online resources, like
>>> >> >> >>> codecademy, coursera and other free things online, but not
>>> >> >> >>> sure if I should get into these, as I lack a foundation in
>>> >> >> >>> computer science. What is the job market like , in your >>
>>> >> >> >>> >>
>>> >>> opinion?
>>> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >>> I really look forward to hearing your thoughts and
>>> >> >> >>> experiences, Thanks,
>>> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >>> --
>>> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >>> Zeeshan Khan
>>> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >>> ToiBooks
>>> >> >> >>> www.toibooks.com
>>> >> >> >>> http://www.facebook.com/**ToiBooks<http://www.facebook.com
>>> >> >> >>> /ToiBooks>
>>> >> >> >>> ______________________________**_________________
>>> >> >> >>> nfbcs mailing list
>>> >> >> >>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>> >> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org<http
>>> >> >> >>> ://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org>
>>> >> >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>> >> >> >>> account info for
>>> >> >> >>> nfbcs:
>>> >> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/**
>>> deniserob
>>> <http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/deniserob>
>>> >> >> >>> %40gma
>>> >> >> >>> il.com
>>> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> --
>>> >> >> >> *Dr Denise*
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.
>>> >> >> >> CEO, TechVision, LLC
>>> >> >> >> Specialist in Technology/Training/Teaching for blind/low
>>> >> >> >> vision
>>> >> >> >> 423-573-6413
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> Website with hundreds of informational articles & lessons
>>> >> >> >> on PC, Office products, Mac, iPad/iTools and more, all done
>>> >> >> >> with
>>> >> >> >> keystrokes: www.yourtechvision.com
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt
>>> >> >> >> the one who is doing it." --Chinese Proverb
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> Computers are incredibly fast, accurate, and stupid: humans
>>> >> >> >> are incredibly slow, inaccurate and brilliant; together
>>> >> >> >> they are powerful beyond imagination.
>>> >> >> >> --Albert Einstein
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> It's kind of fun to do the impossible.
>>> >> >> >> --Walt Disney
>>> >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________
>>> >> >> >> nfbcs mailing list
>>> >> >> >> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
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>> l<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/zeek786%40gmail>
>> .
>>
>>> >> >> >> com
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >>
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>>> >> >
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>>> >> > il.com
>>> >> >
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--

Zeeshan Khan

ToiBooks
www.toibooks.com
http://www.facebook.com/ToiBooks
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