[nfbcs] bs is bs
Zeeshan Khan
zeek786 at gmail.com
Fri Feb 22 08:16:12 UTC 2013
Thanks everyone for you input, i really appreciate it.
You all have presented many options to me an and I have some thinking ot do
I guess. The company I work for, they outsource their development and work
as a customer support manager for them. The project I manage is an
independent project.
Thanks again,
Zeeshan
On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 6:16 PM, Tami Jarvis <tami at poodlemutt.com> wrote:
> John,
>
> I think it's all how an individual comprehends. As an older braille
> learner -- also sans formal training -- I still prefer braille for many
> things because I get better comprehension. Also, setting speech to hear the
> caps and punctuation and going character by character just annoys me to
> within an inch of my life. Honestly, my teeth literally hurt. I convince
> myself to practice now and then, but... So far I haven't crossed the
> irritation hurdle.
>
> The important thing is using what works best! /grin/
>
> Tami
>
>
> On 02/21/2013 10:59 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>
>> But you can hear capitalization too.
>>
>> I suspect my opinion on braille displays is in the minority. As I said,
>> I bought mine after a friend said he wouldn't program without one. But
>> he is much better at reading braille than I am. I didn't learn until I
>> was aabout 40. And I learned braille from the Hadley school
>> correspondence class. So I've never had formal training.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2/21/2013 12:28 PM, Stanzel, Susan - FSA, Kansas City, MO wrote:
>>
>>> I find my Braille display indispensible for Java. I don't always need
>>> it, but when I do it is a life saver. In studying for this Java
>>> certification test they do things like cap something and not cap the
>>> same word in another place. I find it easier to count opening and
>>> closing parenthesis, brackets, braces and other things.
>>>
>>> Susie Stanzel
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.**org<nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>]
>>> On Behalf Of John G. Heim
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 12:13 PM
>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>
>>> All the best books are probably on bookshare.org in accessible format.
>>> They have all the O'Reilly books and those are the best. The reason
>>> I'm not sure they're on bookshare.org is that I never use books any
>>> more when I need to learn something new. I google "tutorial OR howto
>>> whatever". I'd recommend both of those approaches.
>>>
>>> I hardly ever use my braille display. I got it after another
>>> programmer said, "I wouldn't program without it." But find it
>>> inefficient to move my hands off the keyboard. Going character by
>>> character in speech goes faster. YMMV.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2/21/2013 8:16 AM, Mike Jolls wrote:
>>>
>>>> One of the problems I see ... as far as keeping up ... is the
>>>> availability of mainstream technical textbooks in accessible format.
>>>> I'm sighted, so if I have to read print, I can do it. But as I said,
>>>> I'm a slow reader, and that's bad news. It takes forever to read
>>>> something and in a competitive world, you often finish last and the
>>>> other guy gets the job or the perks or the promotion when the company
>>>> finds out you can't go as fast. But at least I can do it if I have
>>>> to. But what does the totally blind person do that is trying to break
>>>> into programming? How do they keep up? And can they get the books in
>>>> accessible format? In Braille? Braille is expensive, and not
>>>> everything is available in hard-copy Braille. And, braille is on the
>>>> decline, or so they say.
>>>>
>>>> I don't see publishers producing their material in accessible format
>>>> any time soon. They may figure ... "hey, there's talking books - let
>>>> them do it
>>>> - they know what the blind person needs". And then perhaps for some
>>>> publishers they just don't care.
>>>>
>>>> I do think the answer is Braille. I learned in a course I took about
>>>> making software more efficient (or your process) you have to eliminate
>>>> the link in the chain that slows you down. You can't go any faster
>>>> than what is limiting you. So if your eyesight is the weakest link,
>>>> you need to remove the need to use vision to read. And that means
>>>> Braille. And if Braille was available, that would solve the problem
>>>> of making the material available for the totally blind, as well as
>>>> removing speed barriers that bad vision would impose for partially
>>>> sighted people.
>>>>
>>>> My personal opinion is that we need to get some technology such as the
>>>> iPad that has VoiceOver built in, and then pair it with a wireless
>>>> Braille Display. Then, a book that you can download to the iPad
>>>> SHOULD BE (notice I say SHOULD) accessible through the Braille
>>>> display. I haven't tried this yet myself. I'm a bit gun-shy spending
>>>> $3000 for a Braille display to connect to my iPad with the thought
>>>> that I might be wrong. That's a big investment.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, as far as keeping up, that's where I see a big challenge. How
>>>> do we get the material in accessible form so we can get the same
>>>> material that our sighted counterparts are reading and get it at the
>>>> same time so that we can learn what we need?
>>>>
>>>> Your thoughts?
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.**org<nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>]
>>>> On Behalf Of Stanzel,
>>>> Susan - FSA, Kansas City, MO
>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 7:43 AM
>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>>
>>>> Mike, I totally agree with everything you have said. I have been in
>>>> programming all my life. I hope to soon take the Java certification
>>>> examination. I work for USDA in Kansas City. I have been there for 39
>>>> years.
>>>> I worked for the City of Kansas City Missouri for my first three
>>>> years. I am one of the lucky ones. My federal employment has been
>>>> great. I need to take this exam just to keep up with everyone. New
>>>> hires are required to have this certification. The preparation is
>>>> exhausting. I now am getting my feet wet in Java Script, CSS, and of
>>>> course HTML. If I were applying for a new position I would not even
>>>> qualify. The amount of constant study is incredible. I don't mean to
>>>> be a wet blanket, but you need to go into this with your eyes wide
>>>> open. The amount of extra work required is growing each year.
>>>>
>>>> Susie Stanzel
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.**org<nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>]
>>>> On Behalf Of Mike Jolls
>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 6:16 AM
>>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>>
>>>> I've been in the industry and at the same company for the last 35
>>>> years - something I understand is rather unique these days. As a
>>>> result, I'm not completely aware of every technology that every IT
>>>> firm is looking for. I can share what our company expects developers
>>>> to know, and offer some advice on what a person should do to prepare
>>>> for a programming job.
>>>>
>>>> 1. Learn web technology.
>>>> Our company is all about web technology. A few years back all of our
>>>> systems were built on the client/server architecture, but they are
>>>> re-writing everything using web technology. Some of the technologies
>>>> you would want to know (and this list is not exhaustive) are
>>>> HTML/Java/CSS/Javascript/**Servlets/Java Server Pages
>>>> (JSP)/JDBC/SQL/XML/Tomcat. Every technology I have mentioned here is
>>>> used to develop web applications. HTML/Javascript is used to develop
>>>> the user interface that runs in the browser on the client workstation,
>>>> and Java/Servlets/Java Server Pages/JDBC/SQL/XML at the server level.
>>>> If you want to understand how web applications work from the client
>>>> browser to the back-end server, learning all these technologies is a
>>>> must. The downside is that there is a significant investment of time.
>>>> You're looking at 6 months at least, and probably a year, depending
>>>> on how in-depth you want to get.
>>>>
>>>> 2. Learn Object Oriented programming
>>>> Today's systems are generally written using an object oriented approach.
>>>> Object oriented programming can be accomplished with any language that
>>>> is architected with OO in mind. Our shop uses Java for most
>>>> programming work and it does OO pretty well. That would be a good
>>>> first choice. C++ is another OO language, although our shop doesn't
>>>> use that as heavily as Java.
>>>> And to code in Java, you'll need an editor that allows you to
>>>> load/save/edit/compile Java programs. I'd recommend Eclipse. It's
>>>> free, just like Java. That's one of the big reasons our company went
>>>> with Java and Eclipse. They are mature technologies and they're free.
>>>> You can download them. You'll also need a good book on Java that
>>>> discusses many of the technologies I've mentioned above. The Deitel
>>>> and Deitel series on Java How to Program is a good starting book. It
>>>> gives you a fairly thorough treatment of Java, and deals with OO/JDBC
>>>> (databases)/JSP/Servlets/Data Structures. It doesn't deal with
>>>> HTML/XML/SQL in depth, but you can get that elsewhere.
>>>>
>>>> 3. Experience
>>>> To get a job at a company without a CS degree ... well I'm not sure if
>>>> you could do that at our company. Perhaps other companies are
>>>> different. Our company REQUIRES at least a degree in something, and
>>>> I'm guessing a CS degree for candidates who want to get a job in IT as
>>>> programmers. I would suggest calling HR departments to find out a
>>>> consensus. If you don't have a CS degree, then experience is your
>>>> next best bet. And I don't mean getting the Deitel book, writing
>>>> their sample programs, and then saying "I'm a programmer". I mean,
>>>> write real applications for your non-profits that give you experience
>>>> in real-world problems so that when you get to the company you REALLY
>>>> want to work for, you have real-world experience to show them.
>>>>
>>>> 4. Expect the technology to change
>>>> And don't forget, this is just a starting point, and the technology
>>>> will change on you within 2-5 years. Even after you learn all of
>>>> this, expect new technologies to come along which will require you to
>>>> learn some or all of these all over again, or learn updates to these
>>>> technologies. If, due to vision issues, you're not the fastest guy on
>>>> the block, expect to have to learn the new technologies on your own
>>>> time, at home. So instead of working a 40 hour week, you may be
>>>> looking at a 60 hour week just to stay even with everyone else. I'm a
>>>> slow reader. I only read about 130 words per minute print, whereas a
>>>> normally sighted person reads about 250 words per minute.
>>>> I'm always having to read something, and it takes me twice as long.
>>>> So in a way, I hate this job because I feel like I'm always playing
>>>> catch-up and having to spend time at home learning new stuff. I like
>>>> the challenges and the problems I solve, but it would be so much
>>>> easier if I could read as fast as everyone else and take less time.
>>>> However, that's just not the hand I was dealt.
>>>>
>>>> Wow, that was a lot to type, and so that this reply isn't more of a
>>>> novel than it already is, I'll stop there. Does that help?
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.**org<nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>]
>>>> On Behalf Of Zeeshan
>>>> Khan
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 7:19 PM
>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>>
>>>> @Jim
>>>> Thanks for the input. I agree that a CS is probably not just to teach
>>>> semantics, I am sure they teach a lot more. But my question is, I am
>>>> currently wokring and if i try to go back and get my BS in CS, it will
>>>> take me 3-4 years, since I will be doing it part time. Is that
>>>> actually worth it in that situation?
>>>> I am currently a project manager on a small iOS App project, kids
>>>> storybooks Apps to be specific and I agree that it is something you
>>>> cannot make a living out of unless you have the next angry birds or
>>>> something like that.
>>>>
>>>> As for your 2 suggestions, one of them I am exposed to, but the other
>>>> one about working in a large company help desk environment, would be
>>>> difficult to secure as I have no tech support experience, so most
>>>> companies will probably not hire.
>>>>
>>>> What specific steps do you think I can take on how to get started on
>>>> learning programming. I am currently goign through the free stanford
>>>> online course called programming methodology, a very basic intro to
>>>> programming.
>>>>
>>>> @ amjollis, I don't have a BS , I have a BA in Economics. Open Source
>>>> projects, and non profit as mentioned by Jim owuld be good way to
>>>> start. In your opinion, how should I learn if I can't do a BS and yes
>>>> my ultimate goal is to land a job as an entry level programmer, just
>>>> to get my foot in the door and of course, I will keep learning as
>>>> tiem goes on.
>>>>
>>>> @John
>>>> Right you definitely need either experience or a BS degree to get you
>>>> in.
>>>> It sounds like I will need ot go back to school and spend 3-4 years
>>>> until I can get into this field, but I feel that is too long to get
>>>> into a field.
>>>> For now my goal is ot learn programming and be proficient enough to
>>>> land an entry level programmer job. Open Source projects and non
>>>> profits are a start, what other specific steps I can take to start
>>>> learning and / or gaining epxerience?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks again everyone!
>>>> Zeeshan
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Bryan Schulz
>>>> <b.schulz at sbcglobal.net>wrote:
>>>>
>>>> hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> just yesterday, i was with a group listening to a f500 hr manager and
>>>>> he said if the requirement for a job says b.s. in iT, you are wasting
>>>>> your and the company's time even applying if your b.s degree is in
>>>>>
>>>> something else.
>>>>
>>>>> Bryan Schulz
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Wunder"
>>>>> <gwunder at earthlink.net>
>>>>> To: "'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 4:04 PM
>>>>>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Jim, your explanation, both here and in your previous post, is
>>>>> relevant
>>>>>
>>>>>> whether we want to hear it or not. We can't wish a thing to be true
>>>>>> and then be mad at the guy who offers to give us his take as a
>>>>>> person working competitively in the field
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For me what you have tried to communicate is gold. I interpret your
>>>>>> messages to be: , "Here is my real-world experience. This is how
>>>>>> people get to be programmers. This is why things may not be
>>>>>> accessible. Here is why people code as they do. Here is how a
>>>>>> project gets started and how folks are rewarded.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All of this detail I thank you for. I can't solve a problem if I
>>>>>> don't understand it. Thank you so much for showing the patience and
>>>>>> bringing the experience we need if we're to really discuss and
>>>>>>
>>>>> understand.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Gary
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.****org
>>>>>> <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>] On Behalf Of Jim Barbour
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 2:56 PM
>>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] bs is bs
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Okay William, let me give you the short version...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No one will hire you because you enjoy programming. Therefore, take
>>>>>> your enjoyment of programming and build some experience. This will
>>>>>> be difficult without some formal training, so look for open source
>>>>>> projects, non-profits, or a niche that you know a lot about.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jim
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 12:48:44PM -0800, William Grussenmeyer wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> blah blah blah... i couldn't even finish reading that email. Yes,
>>>>>>> all you need is to like programming and you'll go far. You'll
>>>>>>> learn a million times more by getting your hands dirty on your own
>>>>>>> than you'll ever learn from a textbook or a boring lecture. You
>>>>>>> sap all the fun out of computers. Boredom is the kiss of death.
>>>>>>> bill
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2/20/13, Jim Barbour <jbar at barcore.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Let's not go from one extreme to the other here.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It is certainly not a requirement to have a degree in computer
>>>>>>>> science in order to program. I didn't finish mine, and know many
>>>>>>>> other people who are coders, designers, product managers, and even
>>>>>>>> architects don't have a computer science degree.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> However, you also can not expect to go from no experience to a
>>>>>>>> computer programming job.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Building apps for an iPhone is not known for being a lucrative way
>>>>>>>> to make a living. See articles like this one for a bit a flavor
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <http://www.cultofmac.com/****175065/inside-the-app-economy-****<http://www.cultofmac.com/**175065/inside-the-app-economy-**>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> making-big-m<http://www.**cultofmac.com/175065/inside-**
>>>>>>> the-app-economy<http://www.cultofmac.com/175065/inside-the-app-economy>
>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>> making-big-m>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> oney-is-far-from-a-sure-thing/****>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's also worth keeping in mind that building apps for iPhone and
>>>>>>>> android will take more time for a blind person. This is because
>>>>>>>> they'll need to use statement based configuration language to
>>>>>>>> layout their app, whereas sighted folks can use GUI layout tools.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'd also say that learning the semantics of a programming language
>>>>>>>> is not why people go for CS degrees. There's a lot to be learned
>>>>>>>> about how to do proper user experience designs, how to design and
>>>>>>>> write code that is easier to debug and free of common bug types,
>>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Also, don't think for a minute that you can build and app and put
>>>>>>>> it in the app store and not market it. It's very important to
>>>>>>>> think about who you want to download your app and what they'll pay
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> it.
>>>>
>>>>> It's also good to think about who should get your 1.0 version,
>>>>>>>> people who aren't afraid of bugs and really want to try out your
>>>>>>>> code, V. people who will give your app a very bad name if any bugs
>>>>>>>> are found.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> None of this requires a CS degree, but it does require some
>>>>>>>> experience, some mentorship, a lot of hard work, and reasonable
>>>>>>>> expectations about how you'll make money at this venture.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Finally, I don't know what to say to someone who says to me "I
>>>>>>>> like computers and want to be a computer programmer." It implies
>>>>>>>> that you can simply do a bit of self study and then start coding
>>>>>>>> up applications to run on other people's computers. You're not
>>>>>>>> very likely to find gainful employment that way.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The two best ways to gain employment into the IT industry are...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1) Doing tech work for a largish. Handling help desk phone
>>>>>>>> calls,
>>>>>>>> setting up computers, doing computer repair, etc.
>>>>>>>> 2) Having knowledge in a specialized niche that you can
>>>>>>>> contribute
>>>>>>>> toward an application. So, for example, if you're a
>>>>>>>> psychology
>>>>>>>> major and have an idea for a clinical app that hasn't been
>>>>>>>> written. You could partner with a programmer and come up
>>>>>>>> with a
>>>>>>>> new app that might make money.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I hope this helps,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jim
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 12:14:20PM -0800, William Grussenmeyer
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> dont agree at all. he's all ready got a bachelors in another
>>>>>>>>> field.
>>>>>>>>> they don't care what your degree is in as long as you can program.
>>>>>>>>> and who needs to take courses on assembly language anyway?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 80 billion apple apps sold and counting....
>>>>>>>>> hook your iPhone to your mac and start learning how to program
>>>>>>>>> mobile devices. no cost to you for distribution and no cost for
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> marketing...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> hook your app to facebook and twitter.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> don't waste all your time with this formal stuff. just make some
>>>>>>>>> mobile apps and if they dont make you money, then show them
>>>>>>>>> around on your resume to consulting companies that might give you
>>>>>>>>> a job online without having to move.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> bill
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 2/20/13, Hyde, David W. (ESC) <david.hyde at wcbvi.k12.wi.us>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Enough said.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>> From: nfbcs
>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.****org<nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>**]
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Behalf Of
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> majolls at cox.net
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 10:27 AM
>>>>>>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] (no subject)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I couldn't agree more with your advice. A 4 year B.S. degree is
>>>>>>>>>> ABSOLUTELY a requirement. There's a reason why a computer
>>>>>>>>>> science major requires
>>>>>>>>>> 36
>>>>>>>>>> (or more) hours (10-12 classes) of study. It takes awhile to
>>>>>>>>>> get your head around how tothink about the computer, how they
>>>>>>>>>> work, etc... And, there is really that much material to learn.
>>>>>>>>>> And not only do you learn the computer science topics in your
>>>>>>>>>> degree program, but you also get the math and english background
>>>>>>>>>> you'll need for solving problems and writing you'll need
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> to communicate.
>>>>
>>>>> A college education is really a must. There is no substitute.
>>>>>>>>>> Also, if you're on your own, you will probably not think to
>>>>>>>>>> study a lot of the topics you will be exposed to ... computer
>>>>>>>>>> topics that is.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You
>>>>
>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>>> think .. I can get a book on programming and learn this .. but
>>>>>>>>>> there are a LOT of fine points that you wouldn't know to study
>>>>>>>>>> because you don't know what needs to be learned. Bottom line ..
>>>>>>>>>> there's a lot to learn. The degree is the way to go.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And DO NOT listen to these technical schools that tell you ...
>>>>>>>>>> "16 months ..
>>>>>>>>>> get the education .. get the job". I've seen family members try
>>>>>>>>>> the quick fix and they got screwed - they were charged
>>>>>>>>>> $25,000 for what amounted to a 2-year degree when they could
>>>>>>>>>> have gotten that training for 1/4 the cost at a Junior College.
>>>>>>>>>> And, they didn't get the same level of education.
>>>>>>>>>> It's
>>>>>>>>>> just not worth it and they're ripping people off.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Also, as pointed out, businesses look at the B.S. degree as a
>>>>>>>>>> rite of passage - as the proof that you're qualified. That's
>>>>>>>>>> sound advice. Get the degree, then the business knows you're
>>>>>>>>>> qualified. Where I program, you can't even walk in the door
>>>>>>>>>> unless you don't have a degree.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ---- "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Are you asking for advice on what kind of computer science
>>>>>>>>>>> program to get into? Have you been offered the opportunity to
>>>>>>>>>>> get into one of these programs many states have to teach blind
>>>>>>>>>>> people computer programming?
>>>>>>>>>>> Because I think you are going to have a very hard time getting
>>>>>>>>>>> a job as a programmer without either a degree or a lot of
>>>>>>>>>>> experience. I wouldn't say its totally impossible but darn
>>>>>>>>>>> near it. Very few companies would even let you pay them to work
>>>>>>>>>>> on their computers unless you have proven skills. You wouldn't
>>>>>>>>>>> let a self-taught doctor operate on you, would you?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There is a huge amount of competition even for the jobs that
>>>>>>>>>>> just require an Associate Degree. Any job that doesn't even
>>>>>>>>>>> require an Associate Degree is going to have bzillions of
>>>>>>>>>>> applicants. In fact, I doubt there even are such jobs. I hate
>>>>>>>>>>> to be so negative but I don't think you can get a job just by
>>>>>>>>>>> teaching yourself programming even if you are really good. You
>>>>>>>>>>> have to have some way to document that you know what you are
>>>>>>>>>>> doing or you are going to have a very, very hard time finding a
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> job.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> IMO, the major benefit of the state-run programs is that then
>>>>>>>>>>> you are already in the system and they can find you a position
>>>>>>>>>>> at some place as an affirmative action hire. Don't knock it
>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> anything to get your foot in the door works.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But if you can swing it, I highly recommend a BS degree or
>>>>>>>>>>> better.
>>>>>>>>>>> There will be a lot of people who tell you it doesn't matter
>>>>>>>>>>> but they're wrong. First of all, it opens a lot of doors that
>>>>>>>>>>> would otherwise be closed. Secondly, programming is a tough job
>>>>>>>>>>> in one particular way -- every few years the paradigm changes
>>>>>>>>>>> completely and you have to relearn everything you ever knew.
>>>>>>>>>>> But the basic understanding of computers and how they work you
>>>>>>>>>>> get at a university makes that much, much easier.
>>>>>>>>>>> You'd think having to relearn everything every 5 to 10 years
>>>>>>>>>>> favors the self-taught but it doesn't. Most self-taught people
>>>>>>>>>>> know how to make something work but they don't necessarily know
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> why.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/19/2013 6:19 PM, Zeeshan Khan wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks Denise for that link.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Currently, my focus in on learning how to program and
>>>>>>>>>>>> getting a general understanding of what computer science is.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Are you a programmer? if so , what kind of programming do you
>>>>>>>>>>>> do? How did you pick it up? and how long did it take you to
>>>>>>>>>>>> become a good programmer to get a job.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Zeeshan
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 4:35 AM, Dr. Denise M Robinson
>>>>>>>>>>>> <deniserob at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Zeeshan
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Here is a start--just open link and read How can you program
>>>>>>>>>>>>> if you're blind? Answered Here<
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.yourtechvision.com/****content/how-can-you-program<http://www.yourtechvision.com/**content/how-can-you-program>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -**
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> if- <http://www.yourtechvision.**com/content/how-can-you-**
>>>>>>> program-if-<http://www.yourtechvision.com/content/how-can-you-program-if->
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> youre-
>>>>>>>>>>>>> blind-answered-here
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Denise
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 11:08 PM, Zeeshan Khan
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <zeek786 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am trying to learn programming and I am an absolute
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> beginner. As a legally blind person I want to ask you all if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone has learned programming and computer science as a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blind person. The things is I have already gotten my degree
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in economics about 3 years ago, so I am not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sure
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if I am too late to the field. So how did any of you learn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> computer science/ programming? What resources did you use?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how long did it take
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to become a decent programmer, or at least good enough to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> land a job? I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> am
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not trying to go back to school and get a Bachelors as it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> own't really
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> help
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> me, plus I don't have the time as I am working. I really
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want to learn computer science as I am looking to make a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> career change, and the future
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in technology. I am aware of many online resources, like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> codecademy, coursera and other free things online, but not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sure if I should get into these, as I lack a foundation in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> computer science. What is the job market like , in your >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> opinion?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I really look forward to hearing your thoughts and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> experiences, Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Zeeshan Khan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ToiBooks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.toibooks.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/****ToiBooks<http://www.facebook.com/**ToiBooks>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.facebook.**com <http://www.facebook.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> /ToiBooks>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/**<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/**>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> deniserob
>>>>>>> <http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/**deniserob<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/deniserob>
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> %40gma
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> il.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Dr Denise*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> CEO, TechVision, LLC
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Specialist in Technology/Training/Teaching for blind/low
>>>>>>>>>>>>> vision
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 423-573-6413
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Website with hundreds of informational articles & lessons on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> PC, Office products, Mac, iPad/iTools and more, all done with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> keystrokes: www.yourtechvision.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the one who is doing it." --Chinese Proverb
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Computers are incredibly fast, accurate, and stupid: humans
>>>>>>>>>>>>> are incredibly slow, inaccurate and brilliant; together they
>>>>>>>>>>>>> are powerful beyond imagination.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --Albert Einstein
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's kind of fun to do the impossible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --Walt Disney
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <**http:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> //nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/**nfbcs_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/****
>>>>>> zeek786%40gma<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/**zeek786%40gma>
>>>>>> i
>>>>>> l<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/**
>>>>>> zeek786%40gmail<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/zeek786%40gmail>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> <http**://n <http://n>
>>>>>>>>>>> fbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/**nfbcs_nfbnet.org<http://fbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/**<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/**>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> majolls%40cox<http://nfbnet.**org/mailman/options/nfbcs_**
>>>>>>> nfbnet.org/ma<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/ma>
>>>>>>> j
>>>>>>> olls%40cox>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> .net
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________
>>>>>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>> <http**://nf <http://nf>
>>>>>>>>>> bnet.org/mailman/listinfo/**nfbcs_nfbnet.org<http://bnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/**<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/**>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> david.hyde%40w<http://nfbnet.**org/mailman/options/nfbcs_**
>>>>>>> nfbnet.org/d <http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/d>
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> vid.hyde%40w>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> cbvi.k12.wi.us
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________
>>>>>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>> <http**://nf <http://nf>
>>>>>>>>>> bnet.org/mailman/listinfo/**nfbcs_nfbnet.org<http://bnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/**<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/**>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> wdg31415%40gma<http://nfbnet.**org/mailman/options/nfbcs_**
>>>>>>> nfbnet.org/w <http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/w>
>>>>>>> d
>>>>>>> g31415%40gma>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> il.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________
>>>>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> <http**://nfbn <http://nfbn>
>>>>>>>>> et.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_**nfbnet.org<http://et.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/jbar%****
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 40barcore.c<http://nfbnet.org/**mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.**
>>>>>>> org/jbar <http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/jbar>
>>>>>>> %
>>>>>>> 40barcore.c>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> om
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________
>>>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> <http**://nfbne <http://nfbne>
>>>>>>>> t.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_**nfbnet.org<http://t.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/**<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/**>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> wdg31415%40gmail<http://**nfbnet.org/mailman/options/**
>>>>>>> nfbcs_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> /
>>>>>>> wdg31415%40gmail>
>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________
>>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> <http**://nfbnet <http://nfbnet>.
>>>>>>> org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_**nfbnet.org <http://nfbcs_nfbnet.org>>
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/jbar%****
>>>>>>> 40barcore.com<http://nfbnet.**org/mailman/options/nfbcs_**
>>>>>>> nfbnet.org/jb<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/jb>
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> r%40barcore.com>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________
>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> <http**://nfbnet <http://nfbnet>.
>>>>>> o rg/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_**nfbnet.org <http://nfbcs_nfbnet.org>>
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/**<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/**>
>>>>>> gwunder%40earthlink.net<http:/**/nfbnet.org/mailman/options/**
>>>>>> nfbcs_nfbn <http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbn>
>>>>>> e
>>>>>> t.org/gwunder%40earthlink.net>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________
>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> <http**://nfbnet <http://nfbnet>.
>>>>>> o rg/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_**nfbnet.org <http://nfbcs_nfbnet.org>>
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/b.**<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/b.**>
>>>>>> schulz%40sbcglobal.net<http://**nfbnet.org/mailman/options/**
>>>>>> nfbcs_nfbne <http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbne>
>>>>>> t
>>>>>> .org/b.schulz%40sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ______________________________****_________________
>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org>
>>>>> <http**://nfbnet.o <http://nfbnet.o>
>>>>> r
>>>>> g/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_**nfbnet.org <http://nfbcs_nfbnet.org>>
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/****options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/****
>>>>> zeek786%40gmai<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/**zeek786%40gmai>
>>>>> l
>>>>> .com<http://nfbnet.org/**mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.**
>>>>> org/zeek786%40gma<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/zeek786%40gma>
>>>>> i
>>>>> l.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Zeeshan Khan
>>>>
>>>> ToiBooks
>>>> www.toibooks.com
>>>> http://www.facebook.com/**ToiBooks <http://www.facebook.com/ToiBooks>
>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org>
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nfbcs:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/**
>>>> majolls%40cox.net<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/majolls%40cox.net>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org>
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nfbcs:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/**
>>>> susan.stanzel%40kcc.usda<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/susan.stanzel%40kcc.usda>
>>>> .
>>>>
>>>> gov
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This electronic message contains information generated by the USDA
>>>> solely for the intended recipients. Any unauthorized interception of
>>>> this message or the use or disclosure of the information it contains
>>>> may violate the law and subject the violator to civil or criminal
>>>> penalties. If you believe you have received this message in error,
>>>> please notify the sender and delete the email immediately.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
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>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nfbcs:
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>>>> majolls%40cox.net<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/majolls%40cox.net>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org>
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nfbcs:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/**
>>>> jheim%40math.wisc.e<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/jheim%40math.wisc.e>
>>>> du
>>>>
>>>>
>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org>
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nfbcs:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/**
>>> susan.stanzel%40kcc.usda.gov<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/susan.stanzel%40kcc.usda.gov>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org>
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nfbcs:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/**
>>> jheim%40math.wisc.edu<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/jheim%40math.wisc.edu>
>>>
>>>
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> nfbcs mailing list
>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org>
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nfbcs:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/tami%**
>> 40poodlemutt.com<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/tami%40poodlemutt.com>
>>
>>
> ______________________________**_________________
> nfbcs mailing list
> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org>
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nfbcs:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/**zeek786%40gmail.com<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/zeek786%40gmail.com>
>
--
Zeeshan Khan
ToiBooks
www.toibooks.com
http://www.facebook.com/ToiBooks
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