[nfbcs] Trade schools

Wed Mar 27 22:22:16 UTC 2013

The trade schools specializing in training of handicapped in their local 
area had special arrangements with employers such that if a handicapped 
person didn't come through that specific system, they'd have their 
attempts to even get an interview for employment rejected.  That's what 
happened in Pennsylvania with the University of Pennsylvania's Circle 
program until the quality of what the program offered employers got too 
low for the employers to continue with that special arrangement.  I went 
through one of those non-local programs and wasted a year job hunting when 
I returned to Pennsylvania back in 1983.  It wasn't until after I got a 
job with the Navy in 1989 that the deal with the Circle Program crashed 
though.  On Wed, 27 Mar 2013, John G. Heim wrote:

> Well, Devry's  the kind of place I was talking about.  I work for the
> University of Wisconsin so maybe I'm like a salesman who believes in his
> product too much. But it's a fact that  many of these for-profit technical
> colleges have been  sued repeatedly by their students for essentially not
> teaching them anything. Poking around in wikipedia, I can't find one that
> hasn't been sued. Devry's itself has been sued several times. Some states have
> suspended financial aid to students attending these schools, it's a real mess.
> 
> It doesn't look as if the lawsuits against Devry's for academics have been
> successful. According to wikipedia, they had to refund some money for
> "questionable student loans". BBut that is different than claiming the
> education was deficient. If I was the owner of an ethically run for-profit
> college, I'd consider myself in a tough place. These other places are giving
> the whole industry a bad name. But I don't think there should be any question
> that the reputation of that whole segment of the educational market is pretty
> bad and a student would be wise to be very careful in selecting a school.
> 
> I'm not sure why a student would go to one of these places when most states
> have a technical school system.  Perhaps there is a perception that the
> for-profit places are better. But I doubt that's true. For-profit colleges
> have a built in conflict of interest that non-profit colleges  and  state
> universities just don't have. The Chancellor  of the University of Wisconsin
> doesn't make more money if enrollment goes up or if students take 5 years
> instead of 4 to get their degrees. She doesn't make more money if they cut the
> number of computer classrooms in half. Indirectly, she may benefit because
> managing the budget is a big part of her job. But the quality of the education
> is still the primary concern. After all the state could save the most money by
> not having a university system at all.  The taxpayers expect the Chancellor to
> manage the budget wisely but they don't expect her to make a profit.
> 
> On 03/27/2013 12:41 PM, Tracy Carcione wrote:
> > I guess I was thinking of the places I hear ads for, like the DeVrie
> > Institute.  There are others, but that's the one that sticks in my mind.
> > I am finding this discussion instructive, albeit depressing.
> >
> > I got my computer training through a certificate program that was being
> > run by United Cerebral Palsy, after I already had my BA.  The program I
> > chose specialized in training disabled people, and, at the time, had
> > about 90% of graduates employed shortly after graduation.  I looked into
> > other programs that were mainstream, but their placement rate was
> > nowhere near as good. The training I got seemed rigorous, and it
> > prepared me to work successfully from the first day on the job.  At
> > first, the boss assigned a senior programmer to give me very clear specs
> > that were almost pseudo-code.  It was too easy.  Didn't stay that way,
> > once they saw I could do the job.
> > I really was lucky to find the right program at the right time.
> > Tracy
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
> > To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 1:16 PM
> > Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Trade schools
> >
> >
> > > By trade school do you mean for-profit tech schools  like the
> > > University of Phoenix   or Upper Iowa University? I think
> > > state-sponsored technical colleges are okay. But I have a story about
> > > the for-profit places.
> > >
> > > A few years ago, I talked the owner of the small consulting business I
> > > was working for into contacting my state's Department of Vocational
> > > Rehab and having them send over someone to fill a vacancy. They sent
> > > over a middle-aged man who had lost his voice in a car accident and
> > > therefore had lost his job as a salesman. This man had gone back to
> > > school at one of these for-profit tech schools for a degree in
> > > computer programming. On his first day, I gave him an assignment and
> > > came back a few hours later to see how he was doing. He hadn't even
> > > gotten started. He didn't know how to get started. So I figured it was
> > > my mistake and I'd given too difficult of an assignment. So I gave him
> > > an easier one. When I came back a while later, he hadn't gotten
> > > started on that either. So I asked him to write a program counting
> > > from one to ten. Just display the numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9,
> > > and 10.  He couldn't do that either. He was fired before the day was
> > > done.
> > >
> > > It was heartbreaking. He already had to deal with the accident and
> > > it's aftermat. Now he was going to have to come to grips with the
> > > knowledge that the effort he'd put into putting his life back
> > > together  was wasted. I have no idea what happened to him but I only
> > > hope he somehow managed to pick himself up off the mat one more time
> > > and give it another try.
> > >
> > > There was no way I could excuse or even hide his lack of knowledge. It
> > > was embarrassing for me but mostly I just felt bad for the guy. And it
> > > was bad for Voc Rehab because there was no way my company was ever
> > > going to work with them again.
> > >
> > > I talked to the guy toward the end of the day abouthow his lessons
> > > worked. It sounded pretty much like a normal classroom situation. He
> > > sat through lectures, got assignments, tests. It was unclear how he
> > > managed to pass without learning anything. Honestly, I  wanted to tell
> > > him that he should demand his money back.
> > >
> > > I always say that life is like a vending machine, you don't get
> > > anything out of it unless you put something in. Maybe the school
> > > worked that way. I know the guy didn't deliberately avoid learning
> > > anything. But maybe he didn't try very hard either. But I do not think
> > > that is what happened. I think he was ripped off. I think the school
> > > was just a scam to seperate particularly vulnerable people from their
> > > money.
> > >
> > > On 03/26/2013 09:38 AM, Tracy Carcione wrote:
> > > > Pursuant to our discussion a few weeks ago about whether a 4-year CS
> > > > degree is required to find employment, I wonder about the results from
> > > > trade schools.  I hear ads for many places that say they will teach a
> > > > person programming.  Are any of them worthwhile?
> > > > I am trying to advise a young blind man who wants to get into
> > > > programming.
> > > >   My first piece of advice was that he should join this list, where
> > > > he will
> > > > get lots of different perspectives.  He's thinking he'll go to a
> > > > community
> > > > college, then get a 4-year CS degree.  Sounds fine.  But, with the huge
> > > > cost of 4-year colleges these days, I was wondering if he might do
> > > > equally
> > > > well, and be less in debt, if he went the trade school route. Or is that
> > > > all a huge scam?
> > > > Tracy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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jude <jdashiel at shellworld.net>
Microsoft, windows is accessible. why do blind people need screen readers?