[nfbcs] evaluation display of a web page

Sun Nov 3 00:13:20 UTC 2013

Hi:  The Deque testing program is a good one, although I am told by 
some that it, itself is not completely accessible.

Dave

At 07:46 AM 11/1/2013, you wrote:
>Mike,
>
>There are many programs like that. We are buying one from Deque 
>Systems. I am part of the Section 508 team. We are working on some 
>education for everyone which will be dependent on their specific job 
>requirements. I am also working on learning Java and am expecting to 
>take the certification test. I am very lucky to have a boss who 
>allows me time to participate on the Section 508 team. I have had a 
>good career with the USDA. I will complete 40 years on March 18th of 
>next year. Feel free to keep these questions coming.
>
>Susie
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike Jolls
>Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 7:34 AM
>To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [nfbcs] evaluation display of a web page
>
>Susie
>
>
>
>I'm not surprised that sighted people are buying things that aren't 
>accessible.  Notice I didn't say "government people aren't buying 
>things that aren't accessible".  I make that distinction because at 
>the end of the day, regardless of whether you're working for the 
>government or not, people are human and they tend to gravitate 
>towards what works for THEM.  They simply don't think of  ... unless 
>you continually remind them ... and even then they still fall back 
>to what comes naturally to them ... what is needed for 
>accessibility.  At least that's my opinion.  Sure, they "feel sorry" 
>for those of us who have disabilities, but as I see it, they make 
>decisions based on what THEIR needs are.  This could come across as 
>an angry comment towards sighted people, but it's not.  I simply 
>believe this is human nature.
>
>
>
>You mention the fact that you only know JAWS, so you can only make 
>the web pages accessible with respect to JAWS.  That statement 
>evoked a different thought.  Stated slightly differently ... sort of 
>confirms what I said above.  Yes, you're the only one that knows 
>JAWS, and YOU are the only one that knows it's requirements.  So if 
>the other people who are sighted don't know JAWS, there's no way 
>they can predict the impact a change they want to make will 
>have.  That just substantiates what I said.  They program to what 
>they know, and what their experience is.  And they don't realize or 
>think of the impact of what they do with respect to accessibility 
>because they don't have to deal with the results of what they do the 
>same way you do.  And then at the end of the day, any blind person 
>has to try to react to what they've done, and sometimes you can only 
>"do the best you can" because there's no easy answer.
>
>
>
>I think you may have hit on something when you said ... "in this 
>computer age, there has to be a better way".  I think one thing that 
>could help is if we had some way to develop a series of predefined 
>functions or library of functions that regular developers could run 
>their code against that could guarantee the code for the web pages 
>was going to work with our accessibility software.  The functions 
>would allow the developers to maybe pass in their new features .. 
>maybe send in an HTML string that is used in the new web page ... 
>and have the function evaluate that HTML and tell whether it is 
>compliant with respect to JAWS, or MAGIC, or NVDA, etc ... So then 
>if you , as the accessibility person, developed the function .. and 
>for example ... programmed it so that passing in an <BODY><SCRIPT 
>TYPE="text/javascript"></SCRIPT></BODY> string caused a "success" 
>answer to be returned, then ... for that function ... the programmer 
>would know that his HTML was compliant.  If the programmer passed in 
>something that wasn't compliant with the rules of the function, it 
>would return false and the programmer would know his HTML wasn't 
>compliant.  Such a set of functions would require a LOT of research 
>and planning, and the examination of HTML would have to be kept up 
>to date with new HTML features that were on the horizon.  And as we 
>know, new features come along quite frequently, so I'm guessing this 
>could be a full-time job for an accessibility developer.  And this 
>might be a great opportunity for blind programmers because they'd be 
>the best people to know the impact of changes, and they'd have the 
>most investment to get the rules right so they'd help others.  Once 
>the set of functions were written, they would give developers a tool 
>to use to know if their HTML code was compliant, rather than just 
>telling them "you need to make your code compliant" and then not 
>giving them the tools to enable them to know whether it 
>was.  Hmmmm.. I wonder if this type of work could turn into a 
>government job?  It makes me wonder if I should go to work for the 
>government .. .seriously.
>
>
>
>Any thoughts would be appreciated.
>
>
>
>
>
> > From: Susan.Stanzel at kcc.usda.gov
> > To: nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> > Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 11:44:10 +0000
> > Subject: Re: [nfbcs] evaluation display of a web page
> >
> > Gary explained this very well. I don't usually get an assignment 
> like this. It always seems a struggle to me to make sure I am doing 
> my part. One of the things I do regularly is to assist folks in 
> making their web pages accessible to me. Since I only know JAWS I 
> can't guarantee Section 508 will be perfect but I can sure get them 
> started down the right path. You would think in this computer age 
> that my job got easier, but that is far from the truth. Even though 
> the federal folks are not supposed to buy anything which is not 
> accessible that doesn't happen. Our new telephones with a display 
> screen are an example of the law not being followed.Please feel 
> free to ask any more questions.
> >
> > Susie Stanzel
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike Jolls
> > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 6:42 PM
> > To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [nfbcs] evaluation display of a web page
> >
> > Gary
> >
> > Thanks so much for the explanation. That does give me a better 
> idea of how a blind person does "see" the document and determine if 
> things are setup according to the desired format.
> > I hope my request came across as genuine curiosity, because 
> that's how it was intended. I didn't want to be misconstrued as 
> saying ... "well, I just don't see how a BLIND person could do 
> that!!". I've had that reaction leveled at me when I discuss blind 
> people doing math, and it sure makes me hot under the collar. What 
> you said made logical sense. I think we could say that necessity is 
> the mother of invention. Yes, you had to write some software to 
> help yourself. And yes, that was a pain. And yes, I can see where 
> you would wish you didn't have to do that. But ... it was a means 
> to an end. You demonstrated your creativity. We in the vision 
> impaired community have all done it.
> >
> > I kind of figured that you'd either get the hard data you needed, 
> or you'd have the computer generate it, so that then you use that 
> data .. those column numbers ... whatever, to provide a means to an end.
> >
> >
> > From: gwunder at earthlink.net
> > > To: nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> > > Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 15:35:23 -0500
> > > Subject: Re: [nfbcs] evaluation display of a web page
> > >
> > > Hello, Mike. Before I became the editor of the Braille Monitor, I
> > > was a computer programmer for the University of Missouri 
> Hospitals and Clinics.
> > > When I had to do column checking to make sure things were lined up
> > > correctly, I found it helpful to write a short utility that would
> > > start at whatever column I told it and read me out what appeared,
> > > starting in that column. I had an optional parameter saying how many
> > > characters the program was to read from the starting column. In this
> > > way I could quickly look through a file and get only the information
> > > I wanted to see. I was not happy about having to write a program to
> > > do what others could do it intuitively, but it was simple to write,
> > > and very helpful to use. Sometimes I had to be innovative and figure
> > > out how to get information I was writing to the screen to
> > > simultaneously be written to a file, because only if it was in a
> > > file could I examine it with the program I had written in Perl 
> or PL/I or Cobol, depending on where I was in my career.
> > >
> > > Although I wanted to do as much of my job as I could without sighted
> > > assistance, there were times when I think doing so was impossible
> > > and other harder to call times when it was impractical. Sometimes
> > > asking for the assistance of a coworker required me to think about
> > > what I could do in return so that we had a fair trade of time and
> > > energy. At other times what I was asking was so insignificant that
> > > to worry about it would have itself been a time waster.
> > >
> > > I think that determining whether or not something is visually
> > > attractive is a tough nut to crack. In the first place one has to
> > > know what is considered visually attractive and in the second place
> > > has to know whether or not that has been achieved in the work
> > > performed. What I do now is relatively simple and straightforward in
> > > terms of producing an uncomplicated printed document, but even in
> > > this case I rely on at least two proofreaders who are going to be
> > > working from the document I have generated in Microsoft Word or the
> > > document that we end up generating to produce the print edition.
> > > Those of us who work on editing the monitor are not sloppy, but
> > > things do creep in that it takes a proofreader to see. Some of these
> > > are formatting errors that are not obvious using speech or braille,
> > > and some of them get through simply because we have looked at a 
> document so many times that we fail to give it the same level of 
> scrutiny that the proofreader applies.
> > >
> > > Susie may well have her own thoughts on all of this.
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike
> > > Jolls
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 2:46 PM
> > > To: nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> > > Subject: Re: [nfbcs] evaluation display of a web page
> > >
> > > Susie
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Can I infer from your topic that you're totally blind? Just asking
> > > because you said you're using a Focus 80 display to do this work.
> > > But that's more a curiosity about you rather than making a 
> statement or a judgement.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > In this next question, I don't mean to "stir things up". I'm 
> just curious.
> > > I'm wondering, how does a blind person go about evaluating a visual tool?
> > > If someone said ... "here's the page .. see if the columns line up"
> > > ... for example ... how would you do that if you were totally blind?
> > > Not saying it's impossible. Obviously a sighted person would just
> > > look at it and make the determination if it was or wasn't as desired.
> > > Someone with vision loss or no vision might have to have a tool that
> > > provided adequate information to tell you about the data you want to
> > > compare. For example, if you had to compare if certain boxes lined
> > > up, you might have a tool that provides starting column numbers.
> > > Once you have the column numbers, it's just a matter of comparing them.
> > > But ... what tool or tools do you use to get the data? Obviously,
> > > nothing is impossible if you can get the tool to give you the 
> data on your terms, or you can get a sighted person to get you the data.
> > > Then it's just an exercise in thinking. I'm just curious how you get
> > > the necessary data.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Obviously you'd (or rather I should say I would) prefer to do this
> > > on your own ... have the tools so you can completely do it on your
> > > own ... so you can set a good example in front of your peers and
> > > your boss, but maybe that's not always possible. You may just be
> > > limited to the tools you have (such as JAWS) and your ingenuity, and
> > > you may just have to ask for human help to get the information you
> > > need. I'm also curious ... if you do have to ask for help, what 
> does that do to the respect you get from co-workers?
> > > Are they less likely to give you really complicated programming tasks?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > OK, I've sort of asked two questions. As I'm say, I'm just curious.
> > > Being a partially sighted person with usable vision, I can (to a
> > > point) get visual information, and I can do some of this visually.
> > > So I don't have a total good feel for what someone with total 
> vision loss has to go through.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks for the information
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Mike Jolls
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > From: Susan.Stanzel at kcc.usda.gov
> > > > To: nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> > > > Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 16:17:20 +0000
> > > > Subject: Re: [nfbcs] evaluation display of a web page
> > > >
> > > > I have done that and they said to change my document presentation
> > > > to
> > > screen layout. I did, but I am not sure that helped. I think I have
> > > it fixed so things are not wrapping now. I checked with my JAWS cursor.
> > > Now for how things are placed on the page, I plan to wait for
> > > sighted assistance on Monday when I return to the actual office.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for your help.
> > > >
> > > > Susie
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Gary
> > > > Wunder
> > > > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:55 AM
> > > > To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
> > > > Subject: Re: [nfbcs] evaluation display of a web page
> > > >
> > > > I would not neglect calling FS tech support to get a read on this.
> > > > My
> > > guess is that a bit of sighted help would serve you well.
> > > >
> > > > Gary
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy
> > > > Carcione
> > > > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 9:20 AM
> > > > To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> > > > Subject: Re: [nfbcs] evaluation display of a web page
> > > >
> > > > I'm surprised your solution doesn't work. I guess Jaws is changing
> > > > the
> > > screen layout?
> > > > My Alva display has different modes, line or structured. They
> > > > display data
> > > a little differently. Does your display have different display modes?
> > > > Jaws also has the mysterious invisible cursor, which might show
> > > > things
> > > differently from the plain Jaws cursor.
> > > > Sorry, I'm not being very helpful.
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Stanzel, Susan - FSA, Kansas City, MO"
> > > > <Susan.Stanzel at kcc.usda.gov>
> > > > To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> > > > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 9:59 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [nfbcs] evaluation display of a web page
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Hi Tracy,
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't have one. I have been using the JAWS cursor to go over a
> > > > > space at a time. I just thought if I could use my display and go
> > > > > down a column keeping my finger on the beginning of each column
> > > > > it would
> > > be great.
> > > > >
> > > > > Susie
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy
> > > > > Carcione
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 8:52 AM
> > > > > To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> > > > > Subject: Re: [nfbcs] evaluation display of a web page
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Suzy.
> > > > > Do you have an Optacon, by any chance? It works well with the
> > > > > new LCD monitors, and is still the best way to see independently
> > > > > what a layout looks like.
> > > > > Tracy
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Stanzel, Susan - FSA, Kansas City, MO"
> > > > > <Susan.Stanzel at kcc.usda.gov>
> > > > > To: <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 4:50 PM
> > > > > Subject: [nfbcs] evaluation display of a web page
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >> Hi Everyone,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I have been given an assignment to clean up the appearance of a
> > > > >> web
> > > page.
> > > > >> I have a Focus Blue 80 cell Braille display. I am just using it
> > > > >> in the normal mode. What I would like to do is actually see the
> > > > >> display which my sighted friends are seeing. I am tired of
> > > > >> asking if it looks better. Yes, I do think this is a 
> unique assignment.
> > > > >> However, I know we have many web designors which obviously need
> > > > >> to have some idea of how something appears.
> > > > >> I tried using the JAWS cursor but I can see enough to know that
> > > > >> was not accurate.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Susie Stanzel