[nfbcs] Google Accessibility was RE: evaluation display of a web page

Doug Lee dgl at dlee.org
Mon Nov 4 23:46:24 UTC 2013 

I can give several answers, and even categorize them.

Practical: If an app doesn't provide enough info for accessibility,
screen readers may not even have enough to work with.

Logical: There are several screen readers. Should each one redo the
same work rather than having the app fixed once? Also, as the app
changes, well-entrenched processes for keeping accessibility up to
date with app changes avoids the fall-behind problem we have with
screen readers and scripting when things happen to an app.

Legal: Sometimes, laws require apps to be accessible, depending on
where it is used and who pays for it.

On Mon, Nov 04, 2013 at 04:28:34PM -0700, Michael Babcock wrote:
I'm going to go out on a limb and ask something that I've been curious
about... Likely this message will make someone mad.
Why is it google's responsibility to make there products accessible?
Why isn't it freedom scientifics or GW Micro's responsibility to make there
screen readers work better? I mean seriously we all fork out $800+ for our
screen readers on top of the price of the computer, (or state departments
do), and when something doesn't work the manufacture of the screen reader
blames inaccessibility from the vendor of the software were trying to use?
Sounds like someone is just pushing the blaim onto someone else to me...
IMO, and this is why I just use a 40 minute demo of jaws, and narrator with
nvda... I don't buy screen readers, and won't pay for one. Now, I understand
that people who write software can do better to make there software more
accessible, however, google is going to worry about making there stuff
accessible with there screen readers (chromevox, talkback, etc), and
honestly jaws and voiceover will take backburner. 
michael
I work from home, and you can to.
http://myownpay.com/

-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson
Sent: Monday, November 4, 2013 4:00 PM
To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Google Accessibility was RE: evaluation display of a
web page

Jim,

One struggle I have is that I think in some cases Google is trying to do
some leading edge stuff that perhaps could be accessible but isn't supported
well by screen readers.  Our only choice to some degree is to ask companies
like Google to slow down, but I really think we need to get a better handle
on what the limits are to current accessibility and when we need to pressure
screen readers and when we need to pressure companies to conform some to
existing standards and good practices.  From what I know of screen reader
development, the problem isn't simply that screen readers don't bother
supporting what might be supported better but that they are having to try to
support so much that is new that they can't keep up.  What I don't think
people recognize is that the more resources one puts into a project, the
more management overhead is also added.  I don't think it is even
proportional, the ratio goes up faster.  By management overhead, I don't
mean people as much as all that has to be done to track changes and test new
features as well as making sure old features are not broken in the process.
I have found, for example, that some of Google's pages work better when one
turns off JFW's virtual cursor or Window-Eyes' Browse Mode.  Unfortunately,
there are still gaps, but it causes me to unsure when I should be
complaining to Google and when it is the screen readers.  I also don't know
how to resolve this adequately.  I really think we as consumers need to
somehow understand this better as we move forward.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Mon, 4 Nov 2013 13:47:25 -0800, Jim Barbour wrote:

>It is true that Google, and every other web application developer, 
>releases code far more frequently than older PC based software did.
>However, it's still a good idea to let google know when you find thuff 
>that doesn't work.

>The same is true for Apple.

>I don't know why, but we blind folks seem especially unwilling to speak 
>up and let companies know when stuff isn't working for us.  We seem to 
>have the rather toxic idea that "they should know if accessibility is 
>broken and if they don't want to fix it then I'm going to help them."

>Jim

>On Mon, Nov 04, 2013 at 01:40:37PM -0800, Mike Freeman wrote:
>> The problem is that "fixes" may not stick. Google is tinkering with 
>> its stuff constantly. The phrase "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" is 
>> not in their vocabulary.
>> 
>> Mike Freeman
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole 
>> Torcolini
>> Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2013 3:16 PM
>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>> Subject: [nfbcs] Google Accessibility was RE: evaluation display of a 
>> web page
>> 
>> April and all, if you are having problems with Google products, 
>> please let them know. They may not be able to fix it right away, but 
>> they still want to know and might be able to tell you some kind of work
around.
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of April 
>> Brown
>> Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2013 2:05 PM
>> To: nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] evaluation display of a web page
>> 
>> Ten years or so ago, I learned HTMl and attempted to code accessible 
>> from W3schools.  They do have Code check.  I don't think it's that 
>> good.  In the last year I have lost most of my vision, and much of my 
>> hearing, so it's even more important than ever!  And I always wanted to
code accessible.
>> Though, knowing some varying issues, especially with vision, I'm not 
>> 100% sure it is possible to code for every variation.  I may be wrong.
>> 
>> Hi *Susan Stanzel,  It would be wonderful if programs on both ends 
>> could fix the issues to make websites more accessible.  And I agree.  
>> I have tried to learn NVDA, and well, learning keyboard workarounds 
>> is ten times harder than HTML ever was!
>> 
>> Hi ***Mike Jolls - Since you evaluate websites for accessibility, can 
>> I ask you a question?  For the last few years, my author website has 
>> been on a Google site.  Are Google websites accessible?  I can change 
>> some of the coding, though much of what I think would need to be 
>> adjusted is not accessible to the page holders that I can find.
>> 
>> Thanks.  Still new to the world of mostly deaf and blind, and the 
>> screen readers that confuse me when they don't just work when I open 
>> the page.*
>> 
>> *
>> 
>> 
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-- 
Doug Lee                 dgl at dlee.org                http://www.dlee.org
SSB BART Group           doug.lee at ssbbartgroup.com   http://www.ssbbartgroup.com
Freedom is not the ability to have what we want.  Freedom is merely the
ability to seek it.  To be free defines what we can do, not what we can get.
(03/28/05)

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