[nfbcs] Google Accessibility was RE: evaluation display of a web page

Steve Jacobson steve.jacobson at visi.com
Tue Nov 5 16:40:41 UTC 2013 

Kevin,

I don't discount the possibility that there may need to be more work done to provide information from JAVA script.  
We certainly need to learn from what Google does and it may well influence future standards.  However, I don't 
think there is any screen reader that takes a completely outside view of accessibility any more.  Also, if we are 
going to work in the real world, we need to 
maintain efforts to squeeze as much accessibility as we can out of all major browsers, and not put all of our eggs 
in a single basket.  I think we also have to be careful not to see the web as an isolated platform.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Mon, 4 Nov 2013 21:41:14 -0600, Kevin Fjelsted wrote:

>Since more and more of the web pages that we use are a mixture of JavaScript and HTML5 we cannot expect to have 
access to a dynamic web page that has JavaScript as part of the structure  without creating some standard 
JavaScript APIs for accessibility.
>The screen readers that take an outside view of the model will never be able to achieve the accessibility we 
need.
>In this case I think resistance is futile.

>The Borg are loose.
>-Kevin



>On Nov 4, 2013, at 9:27 PM, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:

>> Kevin,\
>> 
>> From Google's point of view, this makes a lot of sense, especially since it gives them control of the entire 
information pipeline.  They don't have to depend 
>> upon any other developers.  This is probably workable if there are not too many companies following this 
pattern, but in the long run, it isn't going to work 
>> for us to have to use specific assistive technology for every major piece of software we use.  In their case, 
it buys us cross-platform capabilities that we 
>> probably couldn't get with JFW or Window-Eyes which are so tightly tied to the Windows operating system.  
Still, this approach looks messy to me in the 
>> long run if it were to expand to a great degree.  It will be interesting to see how this all plays out, but I 
would feel better if Google would team up with 
>> someone else such that their solution isn't a Google-Only solution.  
>> 
>> In a later note you said, "Finally, there is a Javascript API in ChromeVox that permits a web developer to 
imbed deep levels of accessibility within there 
>> web pages.  This is a much smarter approach than asking developers to write JAWS scripting for example because 
any serious web developer is already 
>> fully tuned in to JavaScript."
>> 
>> The cases I've seen where web developers wrote JFW scripts it has been so they could retrofit their pages 
rather than looking at making changes to them 
>> to follow existing standards.  I don't think most of us would see web developers writing screen reader scripts 
as a solution.  Before we yet again shift 
>> standards, we need to see what the standards that we already have can do and we need to push existing screen 
readers to support what is there more 
>> completely.  It will take some convincing for me to think that refining and developing a new interface that 
uses JAVA script is clearly a better option than 
>> working with existing standards and refining them.
>> 
>> Best regards,
>> 
>> Steve Jacobson\
>> 
>> On Mon, 4 Nov 2013 17:16:30 -0600, Kevin Fjelsted wrote:
>> 
>>> Keep in mind also that Google is putting most of its accessibility effort into ChromeVox.
>>> Thus the Google web screens are much easier to access with ChromeVox than native Jaws or Voiceover.
>>> The assumption being made by Google is that one will use ChromeVox regardless of the target platform I.E., 
Windows, Mac, Linux, Chrome OS.  Native 
>> Jaws or VoiceOver really gets second priority.
>> 
>>> -Kevin
>> 
>>> On Nov 4, 2013, at 5:00 PM, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
>> 
>>>> Jim,
>>>> 
>>>> One struggle I have is that I think in some cases Google is trying to do some leading edge stuff that perhaps 
>>>> could be accessible but isn't supported well by screen readers.  Our only choice to some degree is to ask 
>>>> companies like Google to slow down, but I really think we need to get a better handle on what the limits are 
to 
>>>> current accessibility and when we need to pressure screen readers and when we need to pressure companies to 
>>>> conform some to existing standards and good practices.  From what I know of screen reader development, the 
problem 
>>>> isn't simply that screen readers don't bother supporting what might be supported better but that they are 
having 
>>>> to try to support so much that is new that they can't keep up.  What I don't think people recognize is that 
the 
>>>> more resources one puts into a project, the more management overhead is also added.  I don't think it is even 
>>>> proportional, the ratio goes up faster.  By management overhead, I don't mean people as much as all that has 
to be 
>>>> done to track changes and test new features as well as making sure old features are not broken in the 
process.  I 
>>>> have found, for example, that some of Google's pages work better when one turns off JFW's virtual cursor or 
>>>> Window-Eyes' Browse Mode.  Unfortunately, there are still gaps, but it causes me to unsure when I should be 
>>>> complaining to Google and when it is the screen readers.  I also don't know how to resolve this adequately.  
I 
>>>> really think we as consumers need to somehow understand this better as we move forward.
>>>> 
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> 
>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>> 
>>>> On Mon, 4 Nov 2013 13:47:25 -0800, Jim Barbour wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> It is true that Google, and every other web application developer,
>>>>> releases code far more frequently than older PC based software did.
>>>>> However, it's still a good idea to let google know when you find thuff
>>>>> that doesn't work.
>>>> 
>>>>> The same is true for Apple.
>>>> 
>>>>> I don't know why, but we blind folks seem especially unwilling to
>>>>> speak up and let companies know when stuff isn't working for us.  We
>>>>> seem to have the rather toxic idea that "they should know if
>>>>> accessibility is broken and if they don't want to fix it then I'm
>>>>> going to help them."
>>>> 
>>>>> Jim
>>>> 
>>>>> On Mon, Nov 04, 2013 at 01:40:37PM -0800, Mike Freeman wrote:
>>>>>> The problem is that "fixes" may not stick. Google is tinkering with its
>>>>>> stuff constantly. The phrase "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" is not in
>>>>>> their vocabulary.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Mike Freeman
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole Torcolini
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2013 3:16 PM
>>>>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>>>>>> Subject: [nfbcs] Google Accessibility was RE: evaluation display of a web
>>>>>> page
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> April and all, if you are having problems with Google products, please let
>>>>>> them know. They may not be able to fix it right away, but they still want to
>>>>>> know and might be able to tell you some kind of work around. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of April Brown
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2013 2:05 PM
>>>>>> To: nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] evaluation display of a web page
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Ten years or so ago, I learned HTMl and attempted to code accessible from
>>>>>> W3schools.  They do have Code check.  I don't think it's that good.  In the
>>>>>> last year I have lost most of my vision, and much of my hearing, so it's
>>>>>> even more important than ever!  And I always wanted to code accessible.
>>>>>> Though, knowing some varying issues, especially with vision, I'm not 100%
>>>>>> sure it is possible to code for every variation.  I may be wrong.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi *Susan Stanzel,  It would be wonderful if programs on both ends could fix
>>>>>> the issues to make websites more accessible.  And I agree.  I have tried to
>>>>>> learn NVDA, and well, learning keyboard workarounds is ten times harder than
>>>>>> HTML ever was!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi ***Mike Jolls - Since you evaluate websites for accessibility, can I ask
>>>>>> you a question?  For the last few years, my author website has been on a
>>>>>> Google site.  Are Google websites accessible?  I can change some of the
>>>>>> coding, though much of what I think would need to be adjusted is not
>>>>>> accessible to the page holders that I can find.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Thanks.  Still new to the world of mostly deaf and blind, and the screen
>>>>>> readers that confuse me when they don't just work when I open the page.*
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> *
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> m
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
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>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
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>> 
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>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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