[nfbcs] Google Accessibility was RE: evaluation display ofa web page

Wed Nov 6 05:08:49 UTC 2013

Interesting  idea. One question, though. How exactly do you expect this to
scale? There are a million different ways to style a checkbox so that it
appears checked. Unless you have some huge library of possible style formats
that could indicate checked, how is a screen reader going to understand
this? The good thing about ARIA is that it is a common language.

-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Fjelsted
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2013 9:00 PM
To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Google Accessibility was RE: evaluation display ofa web
page

My concern with Aria is that of the millions of web pages out there only a
small minority will implement it.
I think that there needs to be a focus on implementing Aria where it can be
done but the CSS analysis and Javascript and event analysis needs to be a
major focus. This can only be done if the accessibility interface or screen
reading functions are deeply integrated with the browser or have a deep data
access.
-Kevin

On Nov 5, 2013, at 9:41 PM, Nicole Torcolini <ntorcolini at wavecable.com>
wrote:

> Actually, no one should be getting mad at this question as it is a 
> very good one. My opinion is that the answer is that it is the 
> responsibility of all parties involved--the manufacturer of the screen 
> reader, the manufacturer of the browser, and the producer of the websites.
> As there is a growing desire to make websites that are more complex 
> than that which native HTML can support, there seems to be a movement 
> away from native HTML, which is what most screen readers support the 
> best. The way to make custom web controls now is to take a HTML 
> element that does not already have functionality, such as a span or 
> div, and attach one or more event listeners as well as decorating it 
> with CSS. This clearly does not work for screen readers, though, as a 
> screen reader has no way of telling that the element has 
> functionality. The solution to this problem is Accessible Rich Internet
Applications (WAI-ARIA). From http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/:
> Accessibility of web content requires semantic information about 
> widgets, structures, and behaviors, in order to allow assistive 
> technologies to convey appropriate information to persons with 
> disabilities. This specification provides an ontology of roles, 
> states, and properties that define accessible user interface elements 
> and can be used to improve the accessibility and interoperability of 
> web content and applications. These semantics are designed to allow an 
> author to properly convey user interface behaviors and structural 
> information to assistive technologies in document-level markup. This 
> document is part of the WAI-ARIA suite described in the WAI-ARIA Overview.
> 
> Okay, so why doesn't this solve all of the problems?
> 
> 1. Even though it is clearly defined how the roles and attributes are 
> to be interpreted and presented to the user, not all screen readers 
> follow these guidelines. For example, JAWS allows the user to specify 
> how the accessible should be determined instead of following the ARIA
spec.
> 
> 2. Even if ARIA is used, a screen reader only gets the information 
> that the browser passes to it. This explains why there are often 
> differences in how well the same screen reader will work on a 
> particular website in different browsers. Chrome Vox actually does not 
> really have this problem because it has direct access to the HTML 
> without having to work with only what the browser gives it.
> 
> 3. Finally, even when the screen readers and browsers work correctly 
> together, it still does not solve the problem unless the producers of 
> the websites use ARIA. Not everyone knows about ARIA. Also, those who 
> do sometimes inadvertently do not quite use it in the correct way or 
> do not understand it. It is hard to visually test if ARIA is giving 
> the desired result as ARIA, for the most part, does not modify the visual
appearance.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael 
> Babcock
> Sent: Monday, November 04, 2013 3:29 PM
> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Google Accessibility was RE: evaluation display 
> of a web page
> 
> I'm going to go out on a limb and ask something that I've been curious 
> about... Likely this message will make someone mad.
> Why is it google's responsibility to make there products accessible?
> Why isn't it freedom scientifics or GW Micro's responsibility to make 
> there screen readers work better? I mean seriously we all fork out 
> $800+ for our screen readers on top of the price of the computer, (or 
> state departments do), and when something doesn't work the manufacture 
> of the screen reader blames inaccessibility from the vendor of the
software were trying to use?
> Sounds like someone is just pushing the blaim onto someone else to me...
> IMO, and this is why I just use a 40 minute demo of jaws, and narrator 
> with nvda... I don't buy screen readers, and won't pay for one. Now, I 
> understand that people who write software can do better to make there 
> software more accessible, however, google is going to worry about 
> making there stuff accessible with there screen readers (chromevox, 
> talkback, etc), and honestly jaws and voiceover will take backburner.
> michael
> I work from home, and you can to.
> http://myownpay.com/
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve 
> Jacobson
> Sent: Monday, November 4, 2013 4:00 PM
> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Google Accessibility was RE: evaluation display 
> of a web page
> 
> Jim,
> 
> One struggle I have is that I think in some cases Google is trying to 
> do some leading edge stuff that perhaps could be accessible but isn't 
> supported well by screen readers.  Our only choice to some degree is 
> to ask companies like Google to slow down, but I really think we need 
> to get a better handle on what the limits are to current accessibility 
> and when we need to pressure screen readers and when we need to 
> pressure companies to conform some to existing standards and good 
> practices.  From what I know of screen reader development, the problem 
> isn't simply that screen readers don't bother supporting what might be 
> supported better but that they are having to try to support so much 
> that is new that they can't keep up.  What I don't think people 
> recognize is that the more resources one puts into a project, the more 
> management overhead is also added.  I don't think it is even 
> proportional, the ratio goes up faster.  By management overhead, I 
> don't mean people as much as all that has to be done to track changes and
test new features as well as making sure old features are not broken in the
process.
> I have found, for example, that some of Google's pages work better 
> when one turns off JFW's virtual cursor or Window-Eyes' Browse Mode.  
> Unfortunately, there are still gaps, but it causes me to unsure when I 
> should be complaining to Google and when it is the screen readers.  I 
> also don't know how to resolve this adequately.  I really think we as 
> consumers need to somehow understand this better as we move forward.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Steve Jacobson
> 
> On Mon, 4 Nov 2013 13:47:25 -0800, Jim Barbour wrote:
> 
>> It is true that Google, and every other web application developer, 
>> releases code far more frequently than older PC based software did.
>> However, it's still a good idea to let google know when you find 
>> thuff that doesn't work.
> 
>> The same is true for Apple.
> 
>> I don't know why, but we blind folks seem especially unwilling to 
>> speak up and let companies know when stuff isn't working for us.  We 
>> seem to have the rather toxic idea that "they should know if 
>> accessibility is broken and if they don't want to fix it then I'm going
to help them."
> 
>> Jim
> 
>> On Mon, Nov 04, 2013 at 01:40:37PM -0800, Mike Freeman wrote:
>>> The problem is that "fixes" may not stick. Google is tinkering with 
>>> its stuff constantly. The phrase "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" 
>>> is not in their vocabulary.
>>> 
>>> Mike Freeman
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole 
>>> Torcolini
>>> Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2013 3:16 PM
>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>>> Subject: [nfbcs] Google Accessibility was RE: evaluation display of 
>>> a web page
>>> 
>>> April and all, if you are having problems with Google products, 
>>> please let them know. They may not be able to fix it right away, but 
>>> they still want to know and might be able to tell you some kind of 
>>> work
> around.
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of April 
>>> Brown
>>> Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2013 2:05 PM
>>> To: nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] evaluation display of a web page
>>> 
>>> Ten years or so ago, I learned HTMl and attempted to code accessible 
>>> from W3schools.  They do have Code check.  I don't think it's that 
>>> good.  In the last year I have lost most of my vision, and much of 
>>> my hearing, so it's even more important than ever!  And I always 
>>> wanted to
> code accessible.
>>> Though, knowing some varying issues, especially with vision, I'm not 
>>> 100% sure it is possible to code for every variation.  I may be wrong.
>>> 
>>> Hi *Susan Stanzel,  It would be wonderful if programs on both ends 
>>> could fix the issues to make websites more accessible.  And I agree.
>>> I have tried to learn NVDA, and well, learning keyboard workarounds 
>>> is ten times harder than HTML ever was!
>>> 
>>> Hi ***Mike Jolls - Since you evaluate websites for accessibility, 
>>> can I ask you a question?  For the last few years, my author website 
>>> has been on a Google site.  Are Google websites accessible?  I can 
>>> change some of the coding, though much of what I think would need to 
>>> be adjusted is not accessible to the page holders that I can find.
>>> 
>>> Thanks.  Still new to the world of mostly deaf and blind, and the 
>>> screen readers that confuse me when they don't just work when I open 
>>> the page.*
>>> 
>>> *
>>> 
>>> 
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