[nfbcs] SQL training

Aaron Cannon cannona at fireantproductions.com
Thu Aug 21 20:08:22 UTC 2014 

If you have a BookShare membership, they have quite a few titles on
the topic of databases you might look at.

Aaron

On 8/21/14, Steve Jacobson via nfbcs <nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Tracy,
>
> You have enough experience that you can probably get what you need from a
> book or other documentation, but looking
> at the company that your employer is going to be using would be a good
> starting place.  In my experience, intro
> classes and documents often incorporate SQL as a means of demonstrating
> certain aspects of the database, so an
> intro will also get you started with SQL.  While I am one who has often
> learned from reading a manual, an
> alphabetical SQL reference is not the way to approach this.  <smile>  There
> is just too much there and some of it
> may be irrelevant to you.  I am assuming that your employer uses SQL Server
> as the source of the data you need to
> use from what you have said, is that right?  If so, finding an intro that is
> specific to that environment would be
> a good idea in my opinion.
>
> When I first started with SQL, I felt to some degree that it was almost a
> sort of step down for me from being a
> COBOL programmer and analyst.  As is so often the case with change, I now
> see that it is just a lot different.
> There are some pretty detailed concepts that one can use with SQL that gives
> one power that one might assume only
> could come through writing a program, but the thought processes are
> different.  You also generally can do some
> pretty complex things and get results much quicker which is also rewarding.
> I am now much more of a data expert
> than a programming expert but that turns out to be very important now in my
> environment.  It sounds like your
> employer is being pretty good about all this which is really great.  Good
> luck.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
> .
> On Thu, 21 Aug 2014 10:10:01 -0400, Tracy Carcione wrote:
>
>>Thanks Steve.  This is very helpful, and concurs with my thinking.
>>Other people are not being trained yet.  My boss wants some key people to
>>get a headstart, and I'm the first.  He told me to figure out what I need,
>>
>>training wise, and that's not as easy as it sounds.
>>I think I need a relational database class/course, preferably focussing on
>>
>>some version of SQL Server.  I will also ask my colleagues who will also be
>>
>>trained soon what they are choosing to take.
>>Several Googles yesterday failed to turn up anything useful in relational
>>database training, but I'll try re-wording my query, again.
>>Thanks.
>>Tracy
>
>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Steve Jacobson via nfbcs" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2014 5:02 PM
>>Subject: Re: [nfbcs] SQL training
>
>
>>> Tracy,
>>>
>>> Of course, I don't know if I have worked with VSAM and IMS at the level
>>> that you have worked with them, but I have
>>> retrieved data from them a lot over the first twenty-five years of my
>>> career.  Over the past ten years or so, my
>>> job has involved using SQL against relational databases.  Before that
>>> time, I did use some SQL against DB2
>>> databases.  I started out mostly looking at the SQL of others to access
>>> DB2 databases and I did get an idea of how
>>> they worked by doing that, at least for simple queries.  When my job
>>> changed so that I needed to learn about using
>>> SQL against Teradata, there were a series of classes that we were all
>>> required to take including an introduction
>>> to databases and other such courses.  After I took those courses, I
>>> actually understood a lot of what I did under
>>> DB2 before I took those courses more clearly.  Since then, I have had to
>>>
>>> write and/or understand SQL that is very
>>> much more complicated than I had ever written under DB2, and I think a
>>> little formal training really helped me do
>>> that.
>>>
>>> The exposure I had to IMS did help me some as I moved into SQL by helping
>>>
>>> me understand that organizing data
>>> correctly can greatly impact how one can regrieve data, but many concepts
>>>
>>> are different when you move from IMS to
>>> SQL.  Certainly the idea of going into an IMS database and getting a key
>>>
>>> that you then use to get additional
>>> information from another database is, from an informational viewpoint,
>>> not
>>> unlike joining in SQL.  But in SQL,
>>> there is no "get next".  You don't think it terms of having a list of
>>> customers and calling IMS for each customer
>>> on a list with various "get uniques", you think about giving the entire
>>> list to be processed in one way or another
>>> and getting the information back for that list.
>>>
>>> A co-worker could certainly get you up and running, but you wouldn't
>>> necessarily realize that you had gaps in your
>>> knowledge because it is very hard to really know what you don't know.  An
>>>
>>> experienced programmer such as yourself
>>> isn't going to need as thorough a course or book as someone who hasn't
>>> done much programming, but I believe some
>>> kind of formal exposure to relational database terms is going to be
>>> extremely helpful to you.
>>>
>>> I would caution against just running out and buying any book or taking
>>> any
>>> course, though.  While it is true that
>>> the SQL that you use in, say, MS Access and what you might use on DB2,
>>> Oracle, and Teradata is going to be very
>>> similar, there are going to be some differences in how different
>>> databases
>>> organize data.  Teradata, for example,
>>> is designed to spread data equally across nodes so it can use parallel
>>> processing.  Getting some information about
>>> relational dabases from the company whose system you are using will
>>> likely
>>> help you write better queries for that
>>> data, and it will help you learn why certain queries will work better
>>> than
>>> others, and this may not be the same on
>>> all platforms.  To the degree you can, take the courses that are offered
>>>
>>> to your co-workers.  I took some of my
>>> courses without actually having access to the platform with speech.  I
>>> often paired with another student and spent
>>> my time taking a lot of notes.  I found that generally I was able to help
>>>
>>> enough with exercises such that I was of
>>> some help.  Those were classes with teachers, though.  You may not have
>>> that option, and you also may not have on-
>>> line courses that are very accessible.  If that is the case, find out if
>>>
>>> the company whose database you are using
>>> has any straight lectures that you can listen to.  Teradata had a lot of
>>>
>>> them and I found them very helpful.  It
>>> is very possible that you could find a way to get the formal background
>>> you need without having to hire someone to
>>> help you take an inaccessible on-line course.
>>>
>>> So what I'm saying is that the differences between IMS and VSAM and using
>>>
>>> SQL against databases is different
>>> enough that it is worth not just trying to learn it all from a co-worker.
>>>
>>> While SQL has many common elements
>>> across different platforms, different aspects of SQL might be important
>>> on
>>> particular platforms so I would look
>>> for ways of getting some basic relational database information from the
>>> company whose database platform you are
>>> using.  You may not need to take an on-line course.  If your co-workers
>>> are not undergoing training just now, you
>>> might be able to find lectures or other topical information from the
>>> company to put together an equivelent course.
>>> Because of the kind of work you have done, some concepts will be easier,
>>>
>>> but you don't want to just learn general
>>> SQL, you will do much better if you learn it within the context of what
>>> your employer is using.  This doesn't mean
>>> that you will have to take weeks to do this, though, but you will want to
>>>
>>> take more than an hour or two.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>
>>> On Wed, 20 Aug 2014 12:16:51 -0700, Brian Buhrow via nfbcs wrote:
>>>
>>>> hello Tracy.  I'm not an IBM expert, but my quick  refresher read of
>>>>wikipedia suggests that VSAM is a storage mechanism which has IMS or DB2
>>>>built on top of it.  If you are familiar with using DB2 then you are
>>>>familiar with a relational database.  If you are only familiar with IMS,
>>>>then you are familiar with something known as a hierarchical database.
>>>>Hierarchical databases are quite different from relational databases.
>>>> If
>>>>IMS is your forte and DB2 is something you aren't that familiar with, I
>>>>think you'll find it very useful to take a class that discusses the
>>>>design concepts of relational databases.  You'll be familiar and
>>>>comfortable with many of the concepts of the relational database model,
>>>> as
>>>>it's an extension of the hierarchical model in some ways, but some of
>>>> the
>>>>concepts and design philosophy will cause you to have to rethink the way
>>>>you understand certain aspects of the database landscape.  I think a
>>>> class
>>>>with a practical exercise component will be a faster more efficient way
>>>>for
>>>>you to make the switch.  I won't say you can't learn it from a
>>>> colleague,
>>>>I'm very fond of that method of learning myself, but I think you'll get
>>>> a
>>>>deeper understanding of the fundamental differences between the two
>>>> models
>>>>and this will help you "up your game" with respect to database work for
>>>> a
>>>>long time to come.  I don't consider myself a database expert, but I do
>>>>know enough to say that good database skills will make you a very
>>>> valuable
>>>>asset in the workforce.  You'll be a little like the fabled television
>>>>repair man who came to fix a broken television one fine day.  After
>>>>considering the broken set for a few minutes, he whacked the side of the
>>>>unit.  The TV began working immediately, the repair man left and the TV
>>>>worked flawlessly for a long time.  Several weeks later, the bill
>>>> arrived
>>>>from the repair man.  "$100" is what it said.  The owner, outraged,
>>>> called
>>>>the vendor to complain that all the technician had done was to hit his
>>>>television.  Several weeks later, a second bill arrived.  "Total cost:
>>>>$100.  Repairs include the following items: Hitting side of television:
>>>>$5.00  Knowing where and how to hit side of television: $95.00"
>>>
>>>>-Brian
>>>>On Aug 20, 12:49pm, Tracy Carcione via nfbcs wrote:
>>>>} Subject: Re: [nfbcs] SQL training
>>>>} Hi Bryan.
>>>>} I have been working with databases for 25 years.  Our current system
>>>>uses
>>>>} VSAM, but the old one used IMS, which was a lot more powerful, mainly
>>>>} because I could add indices or even whole databases..  Anyway, I think
>>>> I
>>>>} have a good understanding of that kind of database.  Are relational
>>>>} databases so different that a whole class would be useful?  I'm willing
>>>>
>>>>to
>>>>} take one if that's so, but if I can get the same info talking to a
>>>>} colleague for an hour or so...
>>>>} 12 hours quicker, ay?  Impressive!
>>>>} Tracy
>>>>}
>>>>} > hello tracy.  If you're interested in taking a class to learn SQL,
>>>>} > I suggest looking around for a class on an introduction to databases
>>>>} > in general with an emphasis on the particular database you're using
>>>> at
>>>>} > work.  SQL syntax isn't that hard to learn from books and the like,
>>>>but
>>>>} > gaining a broader understanding of database designs, structures and
>>>>use
>>>>} > cases is.  Most database engines in common use today use SQL to
>>>>manipulate
>>>>} > their controls and import and export data.  I would imagine, then,
>>>>that
>>>>} > you
>>>>} > might find a class at a local community college entitled something
>>>>like:
>>>>} > "A
>>>>} > practical introduction to databases using MYSQL" or something like
>>>>} > that.   Such a class would be exactly what you need to get started
>>>>down
>>>>} > the path of becoming a database and SQL techie.  I can tell you from
>>>>} > experience that having a good understanding of how relational
>>>>databases,
>>>>} > and this is what all of them are these days, is invaluable when it
>>>>comes
>>>>} > to
>>>>} > learning and using SQL syntax effectively.  Early in my career a
>>>>colleague
>>>>} > gave me a 10 minute lecture about how to construct queries against
>>>>} > relational databases.  I was able to take the knowledge gleaned from
>>>>
>>>>that
>>>>} > discussion and rewrite a report generator we used in a production
>>>>} > environment in such a way that its execution time was  reduced by 12
>>>>} > hours.
>>>>} > That's powerful medicine and it gave me a new respect for database
>>>>} > experts.
>>>>} > By the way, it's worth mentioning that it would probably be best if
>>>>} > you can get a class that uses the same database engine you use at
>>>> work
>>>>for
>>>>} > its practical exercises, but if you can't find one that's convenient
>>>>
>>>>or
>>>>} > workable, taking a class that teaches the general concepts but uses
>>>> a
>>>>} > different software package will still provide you a valuable benefit.
>>>>
>>>>The
>>>>} > concepts will be directly transferable to the software you use at
>>>>work.
>>>>} >
>>>>} > Good luck and let us know what you find.
>>>>} >
>>>>} > -Brian
>>>>} > On Aug 20, 11:09am, Tracy Carcione via nfbcs wrote:
>>>>} > } Subject: [nfbcs] SQL training
>>>>} > } I need to learn SQL.  I've got some time to do it.  I've been
>>>>studying
>>>>} > } books and making some progress, but the boss has just offered to
>>>> pay
>>>>for
>>>>} > a
>>>>} > } course, if I find one that's worthwhile.
>>>>} > } Has anyone found a SQL course that was useful?  Or have people
>>>> just
>>>>} > } learned from books and co-workers?
>>>>} > } Tracy
>>>>} > }
>>>>} > }
>>>>} > }
>>>>} > } _______________________________________________
>>>>} > } nfbcs mailing list
>>>>} > } nfbcs at nfbnet.org
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>>>>for
>>>>} > nfbcs:
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>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/buhrow%40nfbcal.org
>>>>} >>-- End of excerpt from Tracy Carcione via nfbcs
>>>>} >
>>>>} >
>>>>} >
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>>>>}
>>>>}
>>>>}
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>>>>>-- End of excerpt from Tracy Carcione via nfbcs
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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