[nfbcs] Innovation, Usability, Accessibility, standards, and legal requirements.
Jim Barbour
jbar at barcore.com
Mon Mar 3 17:29:13 UTC 2014
Hey Doug,
What processes does your company use to help you decide how something should be made accessible? That is, how do you deal with the usability problem?
I'm assuming you deal with it by having the blind people who will be the direct benefactors of your changes try out the new technology and see if it's usable by them. i.e. they can figure out how to navigate, get information, manipulate objects, etc., etc.
I'm sure Doug already knows this, but It's worth all of us keeping in mind that assessing eyes free usability (accessibility) is a much harder problem to solve if you're not in the accessibility business. How do the developers, QA folks, product managers, etc. know if the product they've written is usable by a blind person.
As has been eluded to in this thread, there aren't good standards, tests, or best practices that will come close to guarenteeing this. I'm afraid that the only way to really know is to pay a cross section of the blindness community to test your app, which doesn't scale well.
Jim
On Mon, Mar 03, 2014 at 11:08:01AM -0500, Doug Lee wrote:
> My company tackles it through an organized system of connecting
> software issues, legal requirements, and code solution suggestions and
> best practices. The goal of this is to help both companies and
> developers manage the problem of making and keeping things accessible.
> Managers get prioritized lists of problems, prioritized based on
> effect, frequency, and difficulty to address. Developers get guidance
> on what to fix and how, and where we can provide it, actual examples
> in code. We are also developing training materials.
>
> On Mon, Mar 03, 2014 at 09:48:34AM -0600, Gary Wunder wrote:
> Hi Doug. So I wonder how we should tackle this lack of know how. Should it
> be through university coursework or in-service training or web-based
> training?
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Doug Lee
> Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2014 7:32 PM
> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Innovation, Usability, Accessibility, standards, and
> legal requirements.
>
> That strikes me as a pretty bold statement, unless you have worked
> personally with a lot of developers. I have done this, and my finding is
> that it's usually not a lack of will or effort but a lack of know-how. Yes,
> some developers and companies don't put much into accessibility by choice,
> but in 13 years of working in the accessibility field as a developer and
> consultant myself, I do not find this to be our biggest problem.
>
> I would say the accessibility development process runs something like this:
>
> 1. Discovery: Developers find out that people are using Tab and Space on
> their dialogs and buttons instead of using a mouse. This really does come as
> a revelation to some. On the tail end of this phase, developers start
> getting an idea of scope: Not just tab order, but control names, type
> information, values, states, etc. become important.
>
> 2. Interest or resistance: Some developers at this point take real interest
> in helping, and others don't. For the interested, help implementing things
> well is often all that is needed. For the not-so-enthusiastic, things like
> statistics, demonstrations, and yes sometimes laws may warm them up to our
> need for their work.
>
> 3. Effort: Time to try code - and hopefully but often not, at this point,
> the knowledge of how to write it well meets with the hands that are charged
> with the work. This is what I'm saying is our biggest problem, more than
> lack of will or effort: Lack of know-how at the crucial times and at the
> right desks.
>
> 4. Standardization: What works once can get included in plans for future
> development. Of course, this goes equally for right and not so right
> solutions.
>
> On Sun, Mar 02, 2014 at 07:17:32PM -0600, John G. Heim wrote:
> The bulk of the problem with accessibility is lack of effort on the part of
> developers. There's a little bit of it being a difficult technical problem
> but the vast majority of accessibility problems could be solved fairly
> easily with a little effort from developers. It's really not that different
> from security issues. If you know anything about security, you know that the
> vast majority of security issues in applications are the result of
> carelessness on the part of the developers. It's the same with
> accessibility. Mostly, its not that its too hard. Mostly it's that they are
> not really trying.
>
>
> On Mar 2, 2014, at 6:15 PM, Nicole Torcolini wrote:
>
> > Some of the problems that companies face that make it look like they
> > are not trying are:
> > 1. Something working with some screen readers but not others 2. Not
> > having a good way to test using screen readers 3. Screen readers not
> > being up to speed with the latest trends Number 1 is particularly a
> > problem if developers do try to test their code, but can only easily
> > access certain screen readers.
> > One of the causes of number 2 is the fact that there is often not a
> > good way to capture what a screen reader says, at least not in a way
> > that is useable in automated testing.
> > An example of number 3 is how some older screen readers, such as JAWS,
> > were made to work with static web pages, and the methods that they use
> > don't often work well with dynamic web pages that are more like
> applications.
> > Although it is not all of the problem, JMHO, a large part of the
> > problem is that screen reader manufactures haven't changed the screen
> > readers as the web has changed, or at least not enough.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike
> > Freeman
> > Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2014 3:23 PM
> > To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
> > Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Innovation, Usability, Accessibility,
> > standards,and legal requirements.
> >
> > With respect, I suspect that a goodly number are *not* trying very hard.
> > However, there *is* what must be a frustrating issue for some of the
> > companies -- that of designing software or a web site to be accessible
> > according to the guidelines and then discovering that it is fully
> > accessible with one screen-reader but not with others. :-)
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole
> > Torcolini
> > Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2014 2:42 PM
> > To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
> > Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Innovation, Usability, Accessibility, standards,
> > and legal requirements.
> >
> > Although I am pretty sure that there are some companies out there that
> > aren't trying and/or don't care, I think that we need to be sure that
> > the companies are not trying before going after them.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jim Barbour
> > Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2014 10:52 AM
> > To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> > Subject: [nfbcs] Innovation, Usability, Accessibility, standards, and
> > legal requirements.
> >
> > <note> I'm starting a new thread about this topic because frankly I
> > don't know if what I'm about to say applies to new versions of MS
> > office. I truly don't know if MS is innovating their user interfaces
> > or if they're just being lazy, and would like for *that* conversation
> > to take place on the other thread.
> > </note>
> >
> > I was having a similar discussion about innovation with Tim Elder this
> > weekend.
> >
> > It is my rather strong opinion that allowing innovation does, pretty
> > much by definition, require that we allow new ideas to grow and
> > flourish before accessibility can be brought into the picture.
> >
> > I would say that this applies to most areas of broad usability
> > requirements such as Internationalization, localization, varying color
> > palettes, ergonomic menu placement, etc., etc.
> >
> > My favorite example of innovation that would have been stopped cold by
> > accessibility standards is the whole AJAX/web 2.0 model that Google
> > introduced with their gmail product in 2004.
> >
> > Google could not have released gmail in 2004 if they had been required
> > to make it accessible. They couldn't have, even if they'd wanted to.
> > The technology needed to make AJAX accessible, what we now call the
> > ARIA roles, hadn't been invented yet.
> >
> > What basically had to happen was a rather long set of conversations
> > amongst web browser developers, screen reader developers, and web app
> > developers to figure out how to communicate the necessary information
> > through the necessary channels so that screen readers could get the
> > right information at the right time.
> >
> > Within the general web usability community, AJAX/web 2.0 is pretty
> > much the big step for web apps becoming truly user friendly web apps,
> > rather than clunky, text based, app like web pages.
> >
> > Therefore, it's pretty easy to argue that AJAX/web 2.0 was a very
> > necessary usability step for the general user community, that the
> > blind were (sometimes still are) hurt by this usability improvement,
> > and that screen reading technology has to catch up.
> >
> > This is pretty much the same dynamic that we've seen over and over again.
> > When DOS become windows 3.0, UNIX started using X-windows and session
> > managers, phones switched from keypads to touch screens, and probably
> > a few examples I missed.
> >
> > So, where is the point at which a webapp stops being experimental and
> > starts being an entity that is expected to provide reasonable
> > accomodations for disabled users?
> >
> > Is it when you have to acknowledge license agreement or terms of
> > service page? Is it when you are expected to give them a credit card
> > number? Is it when the site is made available to the general public,
> > as apposed to a limited beta? I can argue for and against each of those
> suggestions.
> >
> > I do know that the Department of Justice is wrestling with this
> > question, along with other questions about how does a web site
> > provider know for sure that they've made their website accessible.
> >
> > I'm pretty sure that however the rules come down, they're going to
> > seriously hamper webapp providers and in turn give us relief from much
> > of the inaccessible web content we as blind people have to deal with
> > on a very regular basis. I hope we keep both sides of this in mind
> > when the DOJ developes, releases, and begins enforcing these regulations.
> >
> > In other words, I'm hoping we can figure out a way to go after Google,
> > facebook, United airlines, and the US government to get their web
> > sites more accessible; without also harassing tech startups,
> > non-profits, and my high cusin who just put up a really cool
> > visualization tool for how he and his friends listen to music.
> >
> > Take Care All,
> >
> > JIm
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 12:26:25PM -0600, Gary Wunder wrote:
> >> Dear Mike:
> >>
> >> Perhaps one of the things we need to address is whether or not making
> >> things screen reader compatible truly does limit innovation. Is
> >> screen reader technology so far behind state-of-the-art technology
> >> that this is the case, or are we talking about the failure to add a
> >> few lines of code in this new technology that makes it play well with
> >> the assistive technology we need? I lack the expertise to answer this
> >> question, but it seems to me to be all important. We go to Congress
> >> each year with the message that accessibility is easy and doable. I
> >> have never heard the software companies argue to the contrary. What I
> >> do often hear from software developers is that it is too costly to go
> >> back and modify their legacy code but that new development will
> >> certainly incorporate accessibility. Only recently have I heard the
> >> idea that demanding accessibility threatens innovation. Can someone
> >> with some expertise in state-of-the-art coding and state-of-the-art
> >> screen reader technology set me straight. It seems to me that this
> >> argument, if true, changes where we need to place our emphasis. If it
> >> is false, it needs to be revealed as such. If it is true, then we
> >> need to place more emphasis on bringing the screen readers into the
> >> second decade of the
> > twenty-first century.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike
> >> Freeman
> >> Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 11:00 AM
> >> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
> >> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Office 2013: Very Much A Work In Progress
> >>
> >> Gary:
> >>
> >> I confess that I am beginning to think we're running up against
> >> something we ought to be familiar with, being Federationists, but
> >> that we don't want to face. That "something" is that we, the blind,
> >> are a minority. This is something we're going to come up against more
> >> and more as the general universe seeks bling more than information.
> >>
> >> I confess that I'm beginning to suspect that unless and/or until we
> >> come up with *absolutely* iron-clad legislation that, in effect,
> >> limits what software vendors are allowed to do to those things
> >> wherein we can guarantee accessibility -- in effect, limiting
> >> innovation -- something which I obviously know won't happen -- we're
> >> going to be behind the eight ball even with vendors who claim to put
> >> accessibility
> > first.
> >>
> >> I think more and more we will find ourselves forced to old,
> >> tried-and-true but much-forgotten and much-maligned strategies --
> >> such as -- gasp -- use of readers.
> >>
> >> I believe Deborah Kent-Stein and I talked about this a while back and
> >> *she* thinks we'll eventually have to come round to a TapTapSee-like
> >> app that allows us to point a camera at indecipherable screens and
> >> have someone tell us what's going on. I don't think even that would
> >> work as corporations would frown on their networks being used for
> >> such things and might balk at the possibilities of theft of corporate
> >> secrets
> > or intellectual property.
> >>
> >> Mike Freeman
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Gary
> >> Wunder
> >> Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 7:09 AM
> >> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
> >> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Office 2013: Very Much A Work In Progress
> >>
> >> I still respectfully suggest that we put Microsoft on the agenda and
> >> try to find out why accessibility always seems to be at the bottom of
> >> their priority list. Did screen reader developers have a look at this
> >> before it came on the market? Why is it that we were still wrestling
> >> with problems in Outlook 2007 when Outlook 2010 hit the market? Is
> >> there any kind of consistency between the statement "computing for
> >> all" and the kind of release strategy we see from Microsoft?
> >>
> >> Gary
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Elizabeth
> >> Campbell
> >> Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 8:08 AM
> >> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
> >> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Office 2013: Very Much A Work In Progress
> >>
> >> Hello Curtis,
> >>
> >> I am using Office 13 at home on my laptop running Windows 8. I must
> >> confess that I did not have the installation headaches as I
> >> purchased my system and software from Bestbuy. The store in my area
> >> has a very helpful geek squad, and I explained that I wanted to put
> >> the computer through its paces using JAWS and so forth before I purchased
> it.
> >> The Best Buy folks took care of all of the installations for me as I
> >> purchased a year of tech support for my devices.
> >> I primarily use office 13 for Outlook and Word. I am a fan of
> >> outlook, so I was very disappointed to see that it often crashes,
> >> sometimes while I'm reading or writing a message then mysteriously
> >> restarts. IN Word, I haven't used the return address features since
> >> I'm creating documents for use at home or at work, and I send 99
> >> percent of my
> > correspondences via email.
> >> However, I've had a lot of frustration accessing documents that are
> >> protected.
> >> JAWS will start reading the file and then stop. I believe what
> >> happens is that Word shuts down and then restarts because I get a
> >> prompt about recovering files which I can never find.
> >> Interestingly enough, I ran in to this problem last week when
> >> accessing some documents for a Newsline seminar.
> >> I believe there is a way to unprotect files, but I haven't found it yet.
> >> Curtis, I agree that Office 13 is very much a work in progress, and I
> >> hope Microsoft does come out with a service pack that will repair
> >> these bugs which make it almost impossible to use Office reliably.
> >> At work, I an using Windows 7 and Office 2007,and I haven't had the
> >> same frustrations.
> >>
> >> Best regards.
> >>
> >> Liz Campbell
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Curtis
> >> Chong
> >> Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 11:06 AM
> >> To: nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> >> Subject: [nfbcs] Office 2013: Very Much A Work In Progress
> >>
> >> Greetings and felicitations:
> >>
> >> Early this month, I took the rather bold step of upgrading from
> >> Microsoft Office 2010 to Microsoft Office 2013. I am running the
> >> 64-bit version of Windows 7 Professional.
> >>
> >> I am interested in hearing from anyone out there who has taken a
> >> similar journey. Permit me to provide a brief summary of my
> >> experiences so
> > far.
> >>
> >> To begin with, the upgrade was not at all a trouble-free experience.
> >> The first thing that Office 2013 wanted me to do was to link to
> >> either an existing or new Microsoft account. There appears no way to
> >> avoid this
> > step.
> >> Since I had a Microsoft account (which I had never used for years and
> >> years) I had to spend considerable time trying to get my password
> >> back. This was only the first problem.
> >>
> >> Then, Office wanted to set up Sky Drive on my computer, which I
> >> allowed at first and have since removed.
> >>
> >> After the install was finished (hours of work), I tried starting Word.
> >> Right away, I received a message (which was not spoken by JAWS for
> >> Windows) indicating that the program had stopped working. There
> >> seemed to be no way around this problem. In the end, I had to contact
> >> Microsoft Support over the telephone so that someone could remote
> >> into my computer and run some kind of a repair.
> >>
> >> While I am now using Microsoft Office 2013 to do real work, I must
> >> point out that using this software is not without its problems. For
> >> one thing, there are many situations during which JAWS goes silent
> >> and during which one simply has to wait for something to happen. For
> >> another, there are frequent instances when either Word or Outlook
> >> will crash and then recover--all in complete silence (from a
> >> nonvisual access
> > standpoint).
> >>
> >> I don't know about the rest of you, but one strategy which I often
> >> use is to open a master document from Windows Explorer, bringing it
> >> into Word, then save the document under a different name so that I
> >> can work on it. On my system right now, there is no way to do this
> >> anymore. As soon as I hit F12 to invoke the "Save As..." dialog, Word
> >> will immediately
> > crash.
> >> Interestingly, this does not happen on the Office 2013 system I am
> >> using at work. Go figure.
> >>
> >> There are two other problems worth mentioning. First, in Word, the
> >> return and delivery address edit boxes in the Envelopes dialog are
> >> not accessible with any screen access program. You simply cannot read
> >> the text that may (or may not) be in these boxes. Secondly, in
> >> Outlook 2013, the Signature dialog's edit box is just as inaccessible
> >> to a nonvisual user as the Envelopes edit boxes in Word.
> >>
> >> These days, for new users, it is just about impossible to acquire
> >> Office 2010. This is most unfortunate inasmuch as I consider Office
> >> 2013 to be very much a work in progress. I very much am looking
> >> forward to a service pack on this from Microsoft.
> >>
> >> Cordially,
> >>
> >> Curtis Chong
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >> et
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> >>
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> --
> Doug Lee dgl at dlee.org http://www.dlee.org
> SSB BART Group doug.lee at ssbbartgroup.com
> http://www.ssbbartgroup.com
> "You must let me try, for a true soldier does not admit defeat before the
> battle."
> --Helen Keller (in a letter to the president of Radcliffe College)
>
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> "Determine that the thing can and shall be done, and then...find
> the way." - Abraham Lincoln
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