[nfbcs] Sonar or Vinux

Thu May 22 18:10:55 UTC 2014

You make a good point. It is also noteworthy that people who want to invade our privacy and hack our security spend time staring at security code. 

Nancy Coffman
Sent from my iPhone

> On May 22, 2014, at 11:49 AM, "Littlefield, Tyler via nfbcs" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Hello:
> My experiences come from watching the Vinux list a while back, though this may just be the point of view of some of the more radical vinux folks. I know a lot of people switch for various reasons, but for a long time, at least in the Vinux world a lot of people were switching over for some vague hope of higher security. This actually brings up a fun topic though, so I'm going to run with it, because I'm really curious what other people's thoughts are.
> 
> I do not believe it really depends on how many viruses are written for what OS when you talk about security in general. My view of security is a system that is provided to the end-user with a very minimal attack surface. Obviously the only way to truly avoid that attack surface is to just unplug the system in question. So, lets look at this scenario. Many unix systems come with nothing at all enabled, which is great. Others come with stuff like Portmap for RPC, nfs and etc already enabled. Windows also comes with services enabled.
> 
> The bonus points I'll give to Windows is they have a firewall, with a default slightly restrictive policy enabled that helps with some of these issues, where as any installation of Ubuntu or even Debian does not have a default iptables ruleset to prevent access to these attack vectors.
> 
> Finally, Windows has pretty much kept up in terms of technologies like ASLR, etc. It might be easier to say that one system is by default more secure than another, but in this case I think it is -really- important to specify which Linux or even Unix derivative we are speaking of here. I also believe that with work, any system can be secured; out of the box security is hardly a viable options for end-user systems.
> 
> Finally, I want to touch on the open source comment you gave, because I find that really interesting. I understand the ideas of open source vs closed source to a point, but I would argue that having millions of people staring at the code for a long time doesn't necessarily mean more secure code. Case and point: the most recent Open SSL heartbleed bug, which had apparently existed since late 2011. while I believe there is a greater chance of finding these vulnorabilities, the issue is going to be hampered by the vast amount of code that libraries like Open SSL contain. I would also argue that having people stare at the code doesn't even mean that those people are going to be compitant in terms of security. Really truly detecting security problems through a huge codebase requires people who know about security to fully audit the code, as is the current case with the Open BSD fork of Open SSL, as well as projects like Truecrypt, etc.
> 
>> On 5/22/2014 11:51 AM, John Heim via nfbcs wrote:
>> I doubt the vinux or sonar developers ever put any thought into why people might want to try linux. Why would they care if people are trying it because they think it will help them get a job in IT or because they think it's more secure?
>> 
>> Your experience with people trying linux is certainly far different from mine. I don't know anybody who has tried it because they think it's more secure. Everybody I know who has tried it has done so because they are are already in systems admin and want to find out about linux.
>> 
>> PS: I kind of object to your saying linux is not a more secure operating system as if that's an established fact. That's a huge matter of debate.  There is no denying that the vast majority of viruses are written for Windows. I know the usual response is that that is only because Windows is so much more popular than linux. But then you have to get into theoretical issues about open source versus proprietary software. I side with the open source people on that issue too.
>> 
>> 
>>> On 05/22/14 10:21, Littlefield, Tyler via nfbcs wrote:
>>> I don't think the goal was to aid in getting Linux-based employment; I think the overall goal was to provide an accessible distro. Generally you'll hear lots of rantings and ravings, but most people seemed to switch because they think linux is more "secure" by default with no bases for that assumption. At least it's generally what I hear and see advertised by all the blindness companies that are selling "custom" computers with Vinux installed.
>>>> On 5/22/2014 11:15 AM, Jim Barbour via nfbcs wrote:
>>>> I will point out that this is why I'm not a fan of either distro.  The
>>>> blindness world isn't big enough to command a lot of attention. The
>>>> attention we get should be focused on making the distros themselves
>>>> easier for us to use.  Efforts that try to fork distros, like Ubuntu
>>>> and arch, into blindness focused ones, like vinux and sonar, do not
>>>> really help the situation.
>>>> 
>>>> Further, a blind person isn't going to be able to require that all
>>>> unix machines they manage run a blindness friendly distro; so this
>>>> definately doesn't help blind folks get LInux related employment.
>>>> 
>>>> JIm
>>>> 
>>>>> On Thu, May 22, 2014 at 11:02:19AM -0400, Littlefield, Tyler via nfbcs wrote:
>>>>> That's pretty much how it happened. Bill was basically project lead and took
>>>>> over everything with some guy from Ubuntu who was back and forth, think his
>>>>> name was tony. Or maybe that was the main guy, it's been a while. Eventually
>>>>> he just gave it up. My biggest issue is a lot of people call it a "secure
>>>>> OS," including commtechusa if you care to look at that site. I was just
>>>>> curious what they offered. Last I looked, Vinux recommended not updating and
>>>>> they were on an older version of Ubuntu--both not really paths to security.
>>>>> The updates was because things would break, but that still means you're not
>>>>> all that secure if you ever leave your house and your personal router.
>>>>>> On 5/22/2014 9:44 AM, John Heim via nfbcs wrote:
>>>>>> My experience as of about 1 year ago was that sonar was a way more
>>>>>> polished product than vinux. I've seen a lot of questions about vinux like
>>>>>> when is the new version coming out, why is it still based on some old
>>>>>> version of ubuntu. Like so many open source projects, there was probably
>>>>>> one person, maybe two, driving the project and when they ran out of steam,
>>>>>> the project slowed to a crawl.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I was so impressed with sonar that I put it on my machine at home. And I
>>>>>> put it on what I call my drop dead emergency machine here at work. Sonar
>>>>>> is that solid.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The one problem I have with sonar is that they are switching from basing
>>>>>> their distro on ubuntu to basing it on arch linux. I will probably drop
>>>>>> sonar once that conversion is complete. I have to stay with a debian fork
>>>>>> because my job is to support debian.  What I'd really like is to have
>>>>>> debian be so accessible that we wouldn't need either sonar or vinux. Well,
>>>>>> one can dream.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 05/21/14 20:05, David Andrews via nfbcs wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi Jim et al:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I have a Windows XP laptop that I am thinking of installing a Linux
>>>>>>> system on, to play and learn a little.  What are
>>>>>>> advantages/disadvantages to Sonar versus Vinux?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Dave
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
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>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Take care,
>>>>> Ty
>>>>> http://tds-solutions.net
>>>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
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>>> 
>> 
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> 
> 
> -- 
> Take care,
> Ty
> http://tds-solutions.net
> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave.
> 
> 
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