[nfbcs] Telling employers about disability and question about work expectations
Mike Jolls
mrspock56 at hotmail.com
Sun Oct 5 11:56:51 UTC 2014
I wanted to reply to both John and Gary ... thank you for responding. This is definitely NOT about computer science, so I won't post again on this list about this topic ... if anybody wants to keep this going, perhaps we should take this off-topic.
This whole thread started with the question of telling employers about your disability on an interview.
I think my response was ... "be careful what you wish for .. it is a tough world out there and you may be facing (because of your career choice) a lot of pressure and extra work ... be ready ... be prepared ... because it ain't gonna be easy ... at least you should expect that. "
One response that was made was for us to work twice as hard and twice as smart. I couldn't agree more. I always knew I was a slow reader, but for a long time I didn't sit down and time myself so I could quantify the deficiency. After I saw my son reading a book and realizing how fast he was reading compared to me, I did that. Then I understood at least one reason why people were moving ahead of me. I was only reading at 50% of normal. Programming is largely a visual task with a LOT of reading ... books ... on the computer screen ... it's very visual. So you can see why my reading speed is such a detriment to my productivity should I choose to use my vision. Therefore, if I only read a half the normal rate, then it is logical to assume that I must work at least longer than a normal 40 hour week just to stay even. Does it have to be 80 hour weeks (twice as hard)? Well, that's difficult to sustain especially when you have a family and kids. But you should at least work MORE than the 40 hour week. Then there's the working smarter so that you use your time as efficiently as possible and maximize your output. And maybe by working smarter, you don't have to work 80 hours, but you still have to work more than 40.
This makes me wonder if educators are assessing their students, timing them, and being honest with them about what their deficiencies mean for them? I know when I was a kid and coming through high school and college, nobody told me anything. I had to figure it out myself. Not even the rehab counselors I had told me anything like that. I might not have listened if they had told me, but I wish at least they would have been honest and let me know (as my eye doctor told me) that my vision was going to impact any career I chose. Then perhaps I would have understood that I had to work more than 40 hours a week if I wanted to get ahead. Perhaps I was stupid. Perhaps any intelligent person should figure that one out. Anyway, if the educational system isn't preparing their students with this information, I think they should.
Another response that was made was that the world was designed to be a seeing world, and humans were designed to see, and anybody who lacks there is at a disadvantage. This is also related to the comment that "blindness is just a nuisance". At a chapter meeting, we had a discussion topic that was supposed to stimulate a debate. The thought was proposed ... "blindness is like being left handed. It's a right handed world out there so left handed people are at a somewhat disadvantage but they can cope. Blindness is like that .. it's just a nuisance". I had to disagree. Blindness can be a factor that can knock you out of certain jobs. Just think about a blind police officer, or a blind fireman. Or a blind professional baseball player. I think those would be extremely difficult to do without vision, and I basically spoke my mind. The consensus of the group was that blind people could do anything and didn't want to be limited. Instead they wanted to be hopeful and positive. I believe in working hard and trying to "overcome" my disability, but there comes a point where you have to admit that perhaps you can't do something. I comment on that because I think blind people need to be careful about their career choices. They need to try and understand the duties that must be performed in the daily job and evaluate what extra skills they might need in order to be successful at the task. I don't think, for many jobs, you should automatically say ... "you're blind you can't do it". That's taking it too far. But you do need to evaluate what is required and then try to determine what you can reasonably do and if that's adequate.
And as was said, sometimes, no amount of hard work will compensate. In other words, sometimes the answer is no. Pick a different career perhaps.
Another comment made was about bosses. Some bosses are good, some just don't care and aren't going to cut you any slack. That's a big reason why I said a blind person better understand his limitations with respect to the job demands and he or she better know the methods he needs to have at his disposal or else bosses like this are not going to be nice people to work for. Boy do I understand this point.
To tie this all together, you owe, you OWE the employer a good days work. I think they're entitled to know what they're getting. I don't think I'd harp on the fact that I was disabled to the point where it sounded like I was whining, but if they asked, I'd tell them. And, I'd follow that by telling them that I already knew how to get around the issues I face and that I could produce for them. And I'd make sure I was trained with the knowledge for the job, and also had the coping and blindness skills, and knew what kind of time commitment I had to sustain (overtime) so that I could do a really good job for them. After all, they're paying money, and that's why you OWE them a good days work. One that is as competitive with the next guy as possible.
And that's why I asked the question .. are blind students being told these things? If they're low vision, are they being taught braille so they can see if that works for them? They certainly can't know that if they're not being taught about it. And here's a thought. Would it be advisable to test blind students before graduating in a mock job situation so they can see how they do in an actual job assignment situation? Then you could see if their skills are where they need to be. Specifically in the computer area, have a testing situation where the student gets assigned a programming problem ... an easy one ... and then see how quickly he performs it to see how he'd survive on the job?
Perhaps his skill set has to be Jaws, Braille, Eclipse ... you identify by talking to the employer what the skills should be. Then setup the test situation and let him do the work. Find out what the employer thinks is reasonable and would be happy with. Then see where the student fits within that guideline.
I wonder if something like that would help ensure blind people were successful. And, if employers found blind people were successful, they might be more apt to hire the next one.
I've said a lot here, and I've tried to stay on topic. There were a lot of opportunities for chasing a related topic.
Comments are welcome, and if you want to take this off topic and discuss it personally, that's fine.
Mike
> Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2014 15:26:33 -0500
> To: k7uij at panix.com; nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Telling employers about disability and question about work expectations
> From: nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>
> I would agree that we don't assume blind people are slower than their
> sighted counterparts. But human beings are designed to see. The world
> is designed for people who can see but beyond that, people themselves
> are designed to see. If humans didn't have sight, their hearing would be
> a lot better. This implies that we are, in fact, handicapped. There are
> going to be times when no amount of hard work and determination are
> going to make up for not being able to see.
>
> I think that's a very important point because my experience has been
> that we, in the blind community, sometimes are less supportive than we
> should be toward people who are struggling. An admission that you can't
> keep up with your sighted counterparts is as likely to garner calls for
> you to get off your butt as it is to gather sympathy. But it's not right
> to judge someone for being unable to keep up with their sighted
> counterparts. For one thing, they might work in a very competitive
> industry. Maybe everyone in their company already works extraordinary
> long hours. It's not realistic to expect a blind person to outwork
> everyone everywhere. Second, there's no shame in not being the best of
> the best. Different people have different strengths and weaknesses. Some
> people just aren't inclined to work 70 hour weeks and for some people,
> it wouldn't matter much if they did. So my policy has always been to
> just accept it at face value when someone says that they are working as
> hard as they can but just can't keep up.
>
> Of course, I totally agree that if you can work 60 or 70 hour weeksand
> save your career by doing so, that's the way to go. This is the approach
> I took to success in my career. Mostly, this took the form of spending 3
> or 4 hours each night at home making sure I knew everything I needed to
> know to do my job. While my sighted counterparts were thumbing through
> technical manuals, I was being productive.
>
> Also, it does help to be in a job where quality matters more than pure
> speed. Academic environments are good for this kind of thing.
>
>
> On 09/30/14 13:24, Mike Freeman via nfbcs wrote:
> > Yes. Generalizations are dangerous, not only because each blind person has
> > his/her own capabilities, talents and interest but because the nature of the
> > work may interact with these factors. For example, writing visually-pleasing
> > web pages is different than coding scientific problems in FORTRAN or ALGOL
> > or writing in pithon, ruby-on-rails and so on.
> >
> > But in general, we tend to believe that kids should be brought up expecting
> > that they should do whatever it takes to obtain the same production
> > standards as their sighted colleagues or if they cannot, that they bring
> > other advantages to the job that will make it worth it for an employer to
> > hire them.
> >
> > IN other words, we don't assume that blind people are ipso facto slower or
> > less productive than sighted people.
> >
> > Cheers!
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike Jolls via
> > nfbcs
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2014 11:01 AM
> > To: nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> > Subject: [nfbcs] Telling employers about disability and question about work
> > expectations
> >
> >
> >
> > I wanted to comment on the
> > post about disclosing your disability on an interview. I have definite
> > mixed feelings.
> >
> >
> >
> > On one hand, I fully
> > understand the risk you take when you disclose the fact that you're
> > disabled. People have misconceptions that if you can't see as well as a
> > normally sighted person, or if you're blind, then you're going to have major
> > problems or maybe you can't do the job at all. I know one time when I was
> > talking to my son's girlfriend about math, she asked . "blind people can't
> > do math, can they? How do they see to do it?". I had to inform her that
> > there were methods with Braille to do that, but I could tell she wasn't
> > convinced. Now if she had these feelings (and she wasn't even a recruiter)
> > you know some others are going to have these feelings as well. So I get the
> > whole idea of protecting yourself against getting locked out before you get
> > a chance to get out of the blocks.
> >
> >
> >
> > On the other hand, the
> > employer does need to know what they're getting. I know in my own
> > situation, my employer hired me not understanding fully what I was capable
> > of, or where my deficiency lay. And let's be honest . a blind person might
> > not be as fast as a normally sighted person.
> > An employer might want to be aware of the impact of hiring the person. I
> > know in my own case, my eye doctor told me . based on my vision . "don't get
> > a job where you're constantly under deadline pressure . you probably will
> > have a hard time getting it done in the time they want it done because you
> > can't see as quickly as a normal person". Yet I got a job as a computer
> > software developer and I have to say that the doctor was right. I only read
> > 130 words per minute whereas a normal person reads 250. They can read it
> > faster, and they can do it faster. And, this problem has killed my career.
> > So does an employer deserve to know the person has a disability so they can
> > decide whether such a deficiency is something they can deal with? I can
> > definitely see where a person wouldn't want to divulge this since it could
> > mean the difference to getting the job.
> >
> >
> >
> > I can see both sides of
> > the coin. It's not an easy answer.
> >
> >
> >
> > Now here's something I'm
> > curious about.
> >
> >
> >
> > Does it usually take a
> > blind person longer to finish a job than a regularly sighted person? And by
> > blind, I mean partially sighted or totally blind. Should the expectation of
> > a blind person be that they'll have to work more hours a day or during the
> > week than a normally sighted person so they can produce at the same level as
> > a normally sighted person? For me personally, this is something I've had to
> > come to terms with.
> > It's not something I want to do, but I know how fast I read, and I only read
> > about half as fast as a normal person. Doing Braille, I'm not even that
> > fast. And around where I work, they don't care if you're disabled or
> > normal. They just want the work done. They set the deadline and expect a
> > certain work output level and if you can't do it in 40 hours, then their
> > mentality is . "you do what you have to do to get the job done". If that
> > means work 60 hours because of your disability, then so be it". And if you
> > can't satisfy that requirement, they just get someone else to do things and
> > you get what's left.
> >
> >
> >
> > So, what expectation
> > should a low vision / blind person have when getting a job? That they'll
> > have to work more and harder than a normally sighted person? I'm curious
> > what your work experience is like.
> > Of course, if you're really fast with Braille (for example) and you can read
> > 200 words per minute with it and can get the same amount of work done as a
> > normal person, then great for you. You don't necessarily have to work
> > longer and harder. I know that hasn't been my luck.
> >
> >
> >
> > And if this extra work is
> > true . that is if it's something that you eventually realize you have to do
> > as a blind person . I hope that's something that's being communicated to the
> > kids that are coming along. It took me a long time to realize that and my
> > career suffered because I wasn't aware of it. The sooner the person
> > realizes this the sooner they can accept it and move on. For me, that's
> > where blindness is not just a nuisance. It's been a major roadblock.
> > Perhaps if I had learned Braille earlier than age 48 things would have been
> > different.
> >
> >
> >
> > Any comments?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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