[nfbcs] Helping a software engineer keep his job
Steve Jacobson
steve.jacobson at visi.com
Mon Oct 20 18:48:50 UTC 2014
John,
Please correct me if I am wrong, but my slightly loose interpretation of Mike's comments came from this passage in
his note: "With all due respect, why do you keep insisting upon a standard for what time a blind person should
spend to achieve a "normal" output -- presumably meaning the same as that of one's sighted colleagues? The blind,
as with everyone else, are human beings with all the variability that this implies." To me, that's close enough
to saying we all have our strengths and weaknesses to count, but let's forget about personalities or
organizational philosophies for a moment and look at this as a significant issue.
I think most of us would agree that if one becomes disabled on the job that an employer has some responsibility to
cut that employee some slack while that employee works through a difficult transition period. Further, it is
generally accepted that reasonable accommodations should be made to permit a job to be performed by a blind person
if they permit that person to do the job adequately. If, after some length of time, I am not able to do a given
job even with reasonable accommodations, doesn't it make sense for me to look for a different position? If you
disagree with the substance of your quotation of Mike, I'd like to understand better what your position is.
Information Technology in general has a good bit of flexibility built into it, and that can make finding a place
in it less than simple, yet figuring out how to leverage our strengths can sometimes mean that our career may not
be that which we initially envisioned. Do you disagree with that?
Best regards,
Steve Jacobson
On Mon, 20 Oct 2014 12:14:03 -0500, John G. Heim wrote:
>Different people have different strengths and weaknesses, huh? Mike
>said, "If you, the blind person, can tolerate this, well and good. If
>not, you can either improve your skills or go into some other profession."
>I guess technically, telling someone that if they can't cut it, they
>should forget about their career and become a massage therapist is
>acknowledging that different people have different strengths and
>weaknesses. But somehow, I don't think that was the point he was trying
>to make.
>PS: I find it particularly ironic that you used one of my favorite
>phrases and attributed it to Mike Freeman, who, in all our many debates
>over the years has never been willing to acknowledge the value of that
>particular point. I promised on the nfb-talk list that I'd never say
>anything about the NFB philosophy again. But that whole thing about
>different people haveing different strengths and weaknesses was the key
>point I always tried to make during those debates.
>On 10/19/14 18:08, Steve Jacobson via nfbcs wrote:
>> John and others,
>>
>> I must admit that your reaction surprised me just a little because I didn't think Mike was saying what you
stated, but I do think there are some things to
>> consider about measuring one's output. Please understand that some of what I say below is based on mistakes I
have made during my career, I'm not
>> saying I've done everything right.
>>
>> First, it is a mistake for us to measure ourselves against what we think we could accomplish if we had normal
vision. If I had normal vision, there are a lot of
>> tasks I think I probably could do faster, but who knows if I would have even taken up programming at all. In
my case, my life might well have ended in
>> Vietnam had I had normal vision. I may not have felt education was as important and not even pursued what I
did. It is particularly easy to see how one
>> does many tasks slower as one looses vision, without taking into account that some things will necessarily be
done differently.
>>
>> Second, one should strive to be the best they can be, but that does not mean that being less than the best is a
failure. Most sighted people working in a
>> particular job are not the best as there are generally only a few who are truly the best by definition.
>>
>> Third, and I thought this was something Mike was trying to address, as human beings, we all have different
strengths and weaknesses. To a large degree,
>> it is the results that matter, not strictly how one gets there. That is going to also be true of how we
approach a job as a blind person. Some of us can gain
>> efficiency by keeping huge amounts of information in our memories. Others of us work hard to be efficient
note-takers. I see braille as being important, but
>> we likely don't all use braille in the same way.
>>
>> Fourth, we have to be careful to judge ourselves over the long haul and not just on one or two projects. Not
every project comes in on time and/or under
>> budget for anyone, but if one is having a consistent problem, then of course one needs to try to learn more.
>>
>> Okay, so I've now provided four ways to get us off the hook if we don't feel we're being as efficient. There
are four different methods to justify being slower.
>> But of course, that really isn't my point. We do have to consider these things, though, as we consider our own
performance. The goal here is to try to get
>> through some of the noise to get to what might be real answers. We do have to be aware of what we do well and
what we do not do well, and that won't
>> be the same for all of us. If a major part of our job involves something that, after a lot of research, we
find we don't do well or very quickly, we have to look
>> for ways to make that up in other areas of our particular position. If we can't, we probably have to consider
looking for a position that doesn't involve as
>> much of the task that we're not good at. I would even venture to say that some of us because of these issues
may not advance as quickly as might some
>> of our co-workers. However, we have to be careful to differentiate between discrimination based upon blindness
and not advancing because we satisfy
>> requirements but perhaps don't excell.
>>
>> One thing that I have tried to do is to learn as much about the environments I work in as I can. One can make
up significant time by learning what can be
>> automated that others might do visually, and some of these approaches have been developed outside of work
hours. Whether it is fair or not, we have to
>> be as familiar with whatever access technology as we can be. If we are in a technical field, we likely have
the aptitude to do some of our own scripting for
>> example, but we are not hired by our employers to write JAWS or Window-Eyes scripts, so we really have to try
not to have that interfere too much with our
>> jobs. An employer who has an employee who becomes disabled should be expected to help that employee get
through a period of transition, but our
>> chances will diminish if we think that period of transition should last forever.
>>
>> Finally, we need to try to network and share solutions as we try to do here. We won't always agree on
solutions, but multiple solutions are good. Still, there
>> is no getting around the fact that an employer is paying money to have a job done. An employer doesn't get
exactly the same return on every employee,
>> even for the same pay. We can only do what we can to remain within an acceptable range of return, and this may
include developing a specific skill that is
>> useful to one's employer.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Steve Jacobson
>>
>> On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 18:41:12 -0500, John G. Heim via nfbcs wrote:
>>
>>> This is just so typical of you, Mike. Whenever anyone admits to struggling with their disability, you tell
them to shape up or get out. I find your attitude
>> abhorrent and its the embodiment of everything that is wrong with the NFB. Thank goodness people like you are
being shoved aside.
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Oct 18, 2014, at 12:07 PM, Mike Freeman via nfbcs <nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>
>>>> Mike:
>>>>
>>>> With all due respect, why do you keep insisting upon a standard for what
>>>> time a blind person should spend to achieve a "normal" output -- presumably
>>>> meaning the same as that of one's sighted colleagues? The blind, as with
>>>> everyone else, are human beings with all the variability that this implies.
>>>> I submit that while the Department of Labor can come up with statistics for
>>>> how much work a particular job should entail, such statistics are
>>>> meaningless when dealing with the blind because there are so few of us.
>>>>
>>>> You answered your own question: WHATEVER IT TAKES! If you, the blind person,
>>>> can tolerate this, well and good. If not, you can either improve your skills
>>>> or go into some other profession.
>>>>
>>>> This is no different than it is for anyone else, given the array of talents
>>>> and capacities -- or lack thereof -- that we all manifest.
>>>>
>>>> Mike Freeman
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike Jolls via
>>>> nfbcs
>>>> Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 5:06 AM
>>>> To: nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Helping a software engineer keep his job
>>>>
>>>> I am curious as I read these replies about what a blind person should learn
>>>> to get up to speed on being efficient, how spending extra time on the job to
>>>> compensate for a slower rate comes into this solution? How much extra time
>>>> outside of a normal 40 hour week should a blind person expect to spend in
>>>> keeping up, or getting the necessary skills to be able to keep up. The
>>>> obvious answer of course is "whatever it takes" ... but I'm curious if there
>>>> is any consensus as to an average time a blind person should expect to spend
>>>> each week working to stay even with normally sighted counterparts. Fifty
>>>> hours a week? Sixty hours? This time spent can be doing whatever ...
>>>> learning new things ... spending extra time on project work ... whatever.
>>>> What should a blind or visually impaired person's expectation be to this
>>>> question?
>>>>
>>>> As many of you who frequent this list may know, I'm a partially sighted IT
>>>> guy. I already know I'm a slow reader. I already know I only read about
>>>> 50% of the rate of a normally sighted person. Everything in my job as a
>>>> Windows GUI/Database application person requires me to see or read. This
>>>> means just about every task is affected by my slower rate, and therefore in
>>>> my mind the only answer ... unless I find some different super guru faster
>>>> method of taking in the information ... or some way to auto-generate the
>>>> code I write (meaning less time to do it)... is to spend more time per day
>>>> to compensate for my slower rate. I use Jaws and while that's helpful, it's
>>>> not a cure-all. There are many times that I fall back to using my vision
>>>> and I know that's not the best thing to do. Using icons, having to read
>>>> things on the screen because the screen reader can't do it. It all adds up
>>>> to extra time.
>>>>
>>>> In some ways it might be better if I was totally blind because it would
>>>> force me to use non-visual techniques. When you have sight, you naturally
>>>> go back to it. It's really hard to break old habits.
>>>>
>>>> One thing I get from this topic is that many of you are NOT in a Windows GUI
>>>> environment, but rather in a text based command line environment. Perhaps
>>>> for blind people, one answer to mitigating the "extra time" is to not do a
>>>> job that will require you use your vision so much ... such as the UNIX and
>>>> LINUX environment you guys talk about. If I'm hearing you right, there
>>>> you're in a text based world and perhaps that's better.
>>>>
>>>> But no excuses here. I'm just saying that because of the slower vision
>>>> rate, I have come to the conclusion that I will have to spend extra time per
>>>> week to compensate for the rest of my life. I'm just wondering if that's
>>>> been your experience as well and if there is a consensus as to the average
>>>> number of hours per week blind people should expect to spend? Just this
>>>> week I spent about 60 hours ... I'm having to learn some new technologies
>>>> and still do my normal job. It means spending a couple of hours a night
>>>> after work doing that. Personally, I'd rather be with the wife enjoying my
>>>> evenings, but I have to maintain the workload and still learn the new stuff.
>>>> Where I work they want results and the bottom line is that they don't care
>>>> what you have to do. They just want it done. I just don't see any
>>>> alternative unless as I say there's some new way to allow me to do the work
>>>> more efficiently in less time.
>>>>
>>>> Oh, and a question about a comment made in this thread. Someone mentioned
>>>> using a variety of tools to get your job done ... including human readers.
>>>> I'm wondering if the blind professional has to pay for those readers out of
>>>> his or her own pocket, and what the cost of that service runs? I sure don't
>>>> see my company wanting to support that kind of service. As I see it, they'd
>>>> say ... "everyone else has stuff to do and they need to be doing their job
>>>> ... just deal with your job and get it done".
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for listening. I'm just a guy trying to get things done so I can
>>>> stay employed until I retire. At that time, I'm thinking of devoting myself
>>>> to working in the AT community ... maybe trying to help future blind
>>>> programmers. In the world where I work, it's pretty brutal.
>>>>
>>>>> To: nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 10:47:55 -0500
>>>>> Subject: [nfbcs] Helping a software engineer keep his job
>>>>> From: nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>
>>>>> Several days ago I was contacted by a software engineer who is going
>>>> blind.
>>>>> He uses the Linux operating system, and what he really needs is a way to
>>>>> efficiently do the things that are required of him as a programmer for
>>>>> Lockheed Martin. His employer seems to be willing to get him any equipment
>>>>> that might help him in his job, so they have gotten him Zoom text, the
>>>>> K1000, and I think they have even purchased several copies of JAWS for
>>>>> Windows for him to use on several computers. Of course all of these are
>>>>> based on Microsoft Windows, and what he really needs to interact with is a
>>>>> Linux box. He has figured out a way to do some terminal emulation that
>>>> lets
>>>>> him use screen reading technology, but all of the workarounds really make
>>>> it
>>>>> difficult for him to do what once was efficient.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Do any of you have ideas about how to help him? My impression is that he
>>>> is
>>>>> smart, motivated, well regarded by his employer, but at his wits in as to
>>>>> how to do his job and to meet the deadlines that are being offered. He is
>>>>> monitoring this list and will appreciate any comments that people care to
>>>>> give. I will be monitoring the list, but I will be on vacation and rather
>>>>> out of touch for the next ten days or so. I thank all of you for thinking
>>>>> about this and giving him your best ideas. His name is Graham Mehl.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Warmly,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Gary
>>>>>
>>>>> Linix operating system
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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