[nfbcs] [program-l] Re: Communication with people who don't use screen readers

[Martin, Vincent F]

I like this suggestion.  I tried to drag people into the Windows environment back in 1994 and many balked.  I was born with Retinitis Pigmentosa and learned to program on a Cyber main-frame using Fortran when I could still see.  The first pc I ever used was the tears 80 and then the Commodore64.  I literally did get to visually see the old Xerox STAR machine.  I actually used the original Macintosh in 1984 before I ever booted up a IBM PC.  Since I knew what GUI's looked like, I had absolutely no difficulty in working in them.  I can easily see why many people have to have detailed tactile maps to understand what is actually being displayed on the screen.  Having a person that is sighted describe the screen is extremely beneficial.    
My actual graduate research is attempting to use sonified graphs with SPSS to allow blind people more access to Statistical data with a GUI driven program.  I have read enough documentation to make my ears and eyes hurt, but still have to rely on sighted description of what is going on the screen.  I actually have a Cognitive task analysis starting on Thursday using sighted undergraduate users of the program.  The goal is to see how they actually use the program and what they are looking at on the screen to make their decisions.  


-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Deborah Armstrong via nfbcs
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2016 3:28 PM
To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Deborah Armstrong <armstrongdeborah at fhda.edu>
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] [program-l] Re: Communication with people who don't use screen readers

Sabra,

I'm late reading this thread, but I'd like to step back a bit and talk about what I think is really frustrating you.

You think it's not knowing how to accomplish something in visual studio. I submit the problem is that you don't know enough about how sighted people work with it and with other applications.

So here are some radical thoughts.

Post a few signs on campus asking for a volunteer to spend an hour with you somewhere comfortable like the cafeteria in exchange for you buying them lunch. The requirement is that the volunteer has a Windows laptop and knows some application well and speaks English clearly.

Now when you sit with the volunteer have him explain in detail what he is doing to perform tasks in that app. Have him describe the screen layout. Ask questions. Ask for descriptions of the icons. Have him hover on controls and describe what changes onscreen. 

Drop your visual Basic class. Take something below your skill level so you can stay in school. Spend the time you were spending struggling with the visual interface on understanding the visual interface.  Don't panic if you don't get your degree as fast as sighted people. You want to compete eventually in life where it matters, not in college, where it doesn't.

Also, get every book on visual studio, and visual basic from Learning Ally and pay particular attention to the descriptions of the screens. Some books and some volunteer readers are better than others. But you want to see that screen in your mind clearer than sighted people, who after all only look at it through one pair of eyes. You will look at the computer through the eyes of all the volunteer describers whose assistance you have sought.  Even when they are describing Excel and not visual studio, you will know much better how to design forms, because you have seen with their eyes.

I was very lucky when Windows came along. I was working as a valued employee doing technical writing and tech support in DOS. My co-workers all described the new graphically-oriented interface to me and tried clicking on things to see what would happen. I was not under pressure to master Windows because I was valued for what I was already doing, but my curiosity lead me to ask everyone struggling with Windows to describe the visual elements and the interactions to me in detail. This was before a screen reader for Windows even existed.

That experience lead me to realize how much more I could learn by asking a variety of people to describe their screens to me in short sessions which allowed me to see what they saw.

I think if you switch your goal from passing the class to understanding how visual studio works, what you can do with it and how to accomplish that, you will know more about it than the people who do pass the class!



-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sabra Ewing via nfbcs
Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2016 10:13 AM
To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
Cc: Sabra Ewing
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] [program-l] Re: Communication with people who don't use screen readers

Yes, I agree with you Andy. That is what I was trying to say. I am also trying to say that I shouldn't have to have a reader to work software that is accessible, but just has difficult to find documentation. Also, I did not know that mail was an envelope. That doesn't make sense because sending an email is not the same as sending a letter. Mail should be something cooler like a running cheetah with a computer chip in its mouth.

Sabra Ewing

> On Oct 9, 2016, at 11:27 AM, Andy B. via nfbcs <nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Sorry... I completely disagree with this philosophy. When I go into a 
> class, I have a job to do - learn the content of the class to the best 
> of my ability. It is not my job or responsibility to learn what a 
> green arrow, a red triangle, an envelope, or any other icon does. No, 
> it is my job to learn .net framework programming languages and tools
> -- whatever it takes to learn it, that is the task at hand. In fact, I 
> care less about the visual parts of Visual Studio such as icons, 
> images, and other colorful affects. My supervisor or next client does 
> not care if I can evaluate and assess the difference between one 
> toolbar icon and the next. All they care about is there project can 
> build and run as expected. My client cares less how a project is 
> built. My co-workers doing the same type of tasks should understand 
> the language "put a control on the forms designer, then build and run the project."
> Yes, we need to understand how a user interface is built, how it's 
> visually laid out, and how to make an appealing/easy to use interface.
> However, understanding parts of Visual Studio is less critical from a 
> sighted person's point of view than it is a blind person's point of 
> view. Convince me that it is absolutely mandatory that he learn it 
> from a sighted person's perspective. On another note, the 
> school/professor must follow ADA law if the ADA law applies to him in 
> his country, if different than the U. S. If he is tested on what each 
> icon means, and can't give answers because it is inaccessible, then 
> the school must test on the same content in a different way. Listing the buttons and their tooltips and requiring an answer is fine.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve 
> Jacobson via nfbcs
> Sent: None
> To: program-l at freelists.org
> Cc: Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson-visi at outlook.com>; 'NFB in Computer 
> Science Mailing List' <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] [program-l] Re: Communication with people who 
> don't use screen readers
> 
> Sabra,
> 
> Since your messages have started threads on both program-l and NFBCS, 
> I am copying both lists on my response.  I have a different take on 
> this than some.  I am not dealing with any legal requirements here, though.
> 
> Over the years, I have had to take courses as part of my job.  What I 
> have found to work best is to start out taking the courses with a 
> reader.  In other words, I have made a point to learn what the class 
> is being taught without dealing with accessibility issues all at once.
> The fact is that to some degree, the issues you are facing are issues 
> that will be there on the job.  Schools are required to address 
> accessibility, even if they don't always do it well, but many 
> workplaces do not have to address accessibility, at least not to the same degree.
> 
> What I have found is that if I understand how the software works for a 
> sighted person, even if it means they have to do a lot of the clicking 
> at first, I have a much easier time seeing how accessibility 
> alternatives can work.  I have found that as I learned, I was able to 
> gradually find accessible means of doing the same thing and becoming 
> more and more independent in the course.