[nfbcs] purpose of division

Sun Nov 25 16:09:19 UTC 2018

Andy,

Thanks for the explanation.  I have encountered these but did not know what they were called.  I have heard that using Google Chrome is supposed to increase the chances of not getting the more difficult CAPTCHA even if one were not logged into a Google account, but I have not seen that actually happen.  

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Aaron Cannon via nfbcs
Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2018 3:31 AM
To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Aaron Cannon <cannona at fireantproductions.com>
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] purpose of division

Thanks Buddy.

The only thing I'll add is that I've found whether or not you just get the checkbox, rather than the more difficult CAPTCHA, depends largely, but not exclusively, on whether or not you are logged into a Google Account.

Aaron

--
This message was sent from a mobile device

> On Nov 24, 2018, at 19:10, Buddy Brannan via nfbcs <nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> I’m not Aaron, but I’m handy.
> 
> CAPTCHA (which stands for something…it’s an acronym, and I’d look it up if I cared) is the general term for this specific sort of test. ReCAPTCHA is Google’s implementation of the test. It used to be a right royal pain, but its latest iterations are quite good. Usually, you can check a box that says “I’m not a robot” and you’re good to go. If it can’t determine your humanness by the way you navigate to the checkbox, it will ask you to identify the pictures with a specific element in them, or you can click for an audio challenge. The audio challenge asks you to type in the words from a short, say, 2-3 second audio clip. Unlike past iterations of the Recaptcha audio challenge, these are just straight audio cut out of some generally available audio clip without added distortion or artifacts. There may be a word fragment at the beginning or end, which of Course you can safely ignore.
> 
>> On Nov 24, 2018, at 6:26 PM, Steve Jacobson via nfbcs <nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Aaron,
>> 
>> Would you or somebody explain ReCAPTCHA versus CAPTCHA?
>> 
>> Best regards,
>> 
>> Steve Jacobson
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfbcs <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Aaron Cannon via 
>> nfbcs
>> Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2018 5:22 PM
>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Aaron Cannon <cannona at fireantproductions.com>
>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] purpose of division
>> 
>> Which browser are you on?
>> 
>> This appears to be a ReCAPTCHA, which tend to work a lot better if 
>> you first login to your google account in the same browser first.
>> 
>> Hope this helps.
>> 
>> Aaron
>> 
>>> On 11/24/18, Bryan Schulz via nfbcs <nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> Thank you for providing an overview.
>>> This was not the first time I have found this style of captia, it 
>>> just seems to be found more often and spurred irritation.
>>> The site was www.rc10.com and the captia is found after hitting the 
>>> login link then the create account link.
>>> There was a chance for an audio challenge but jaws said it was not 
>>> available.
>>> Bryan Schulz
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nfbcs <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson 
>>> via nfbcs
>>> Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2018 2:45 PM
>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List' <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] purpose of division
>>> 
>>> Bryan,
>>> 
>>> When trying to figure out the purpose of your messages I am always 
>>> left wondering if you really want an answer to questions or are you 
>>> just
>> wanting
>>> a chance to take a shot at us.  I think, though, there is a 
>>> reasonable chance that trying to answer your questions is worthwhile.
>>> 
>>> First, I don't know that NFBCS was ever seen as a vehicle for 
>>> general advocacy.  That has always been more a function of our 
>>> national organization as a whole.  As a long-time NFBCS member and 
>>> officer, I do feel we serve a useful purpose by working with 
>>> specific companies with which we have had long-term relationships 
>>> and by trying to make information available.
>> Also,
>>> people on this list can sometimes be a useful resource in finding 
>>> workarounds.  Collectively, we have expertise that can help to 
>>> understand why a problem exists and maybe even help to prioritize 
>>> which problems can likely be solved easily and which cannot.
>>> 
>>> I readily admit that it is sometimes difficult to know where it is 
>>> best to bring a concern about accessibility, though.  Sometimes some 
>>> of us can
>> help
>>> with that.  The cold hard facts, though, are that we still have too 
>>> many accessibility issues to successfully deal with every one 
>>> brought to our attention.  One of the areas I volunteer in is dealing with Microsoft.
>>> There are so many issues even with Microsoft that we are not able to 
>>> push all of them effectively, even though we've seen a good deal of progress.
>>> Also, we need people who actually have the experience with a given 
>>> problem to help.  I know nothing about the testing software you 
>>> mention so can't deal with specifics of that very effectively.  I 
>>> don't remember exactly
>> how
>>> you brought the accessible comptia/Microsoft testing software  
>>> issues to NFBCS, but this isn't an issue with which I was familiar.  
>>> If you describe the issue in more detail, I am certainly willing to 
>>> raise it with
>> Microsoft
>>> whenever I am next in a meeting with them.  Even so, sometimes we 
>>> have to decide where to push hardest.  An issue like this sometimes 
>>> gets less emphasis than an issue like not being able to enter a 
>>> password in Outlook when the credentials screen doesn't get focus 
>>> because that may affect more people.
>>> 
>>> One also has to understand that there is no law that says everything 
>>> has
>> to
>>> be accessible.  There are clear laws that require accessibility in
>> specific
>>> cases, but this means that we can't just launch a lawsuit for any 
>>> accessibility issue.  Sometimes the law covers institutions that use 
>>> a given pice of software and not the actual creators of software, 
>>> for example.
>>> This
>>> doesn't mean there isn't anything that can be done, but it can 
>>> affect the path taken, and it often means that solutions take a long time to find.
>> We
>>> need help from our members sometimes to really understand a problem 
>>> and to document it and help us move forward with it.
>>> 
>>> Finally, CAPTCHAs are a real challenge.  Some of us have been trying 
>>> to affect their use for a long time.  I share your fear that the use 
>>> of AIRA, Be My Eyes, and other such solutions may give some 
>>> companies an excuse not to do anything, and this cannot become 
>>> acceptable.  Audio CAPTCHAs are pretty common now and you didn't say 
>>> if the company you dealt with had one or not.  This is a fairly 
>>> accepted solution among those who require CAPTCHAs, but it still 
>>> leaves out those who have both vision and hearing loss.  My 
>>> experience has been that audio CAPTCHAs are more reliable now than 
>>> they have been in the past.  I have personally looked at some 
>>> alternatives that appear to work but turn out to have limitations.  
>>> When you look at
>> the
>>> ability of SIRI, Alexa, and Google Home to analyze and break down 
>>> the syntax of questions asked of them, it is clear that most word 
>>> problem solutions offer limited protection from robots attempting to 
>>> gain access to a
>> system.
>>> It is starting to appear that Google is a major player in CAPTCHAs,
>> though.
>>> Many companies use Google's CAPTCHA service.  Possibly that may 
>>> provide a useful pressure point.
>>> 
>>> Bryan, I realize this is probably not a satisfactory answer.  Also, 
>>> the president of NFBCS may have more to say on this as well.  
>>> However, laying out the specific problems you are having, even on 
>>> this list, can be
>> helpful
>>> by making more of us aware of what people are encountering.  Also, 
>>> sometimes, it may turn out somebody else has found a workaround or 
>>> may be further along in pursuing a solution.  Finally, sometimes it 
>>> is helpful to those of us who volunteer in this area to be reminded 
>>> of the common frustrations being encountered.  This can help us 
>>> know, both as the NFBCS division and as an organization as a whole, 
>>> how we can most effectively approach issues.
>>> 
>>> Best regards,
>>> 
>>> Steve Jacobson
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nfbcs <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Bryan Schulz via 
>>> nfbcs
>>> Sent: Friday, November 23, 2018 3:49 PM
>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List' <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Bryan Schulz <b.schulz at sbcglobal.net>
>>> Subject: [nfbcs] purpose of division
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> This may be a bit off topic because it is actually a web site issue.
>>> 
>>> In my opinion the cs division doesn't do much especially towards 
>>> advocacy with topics that affect using computers/web sites.
>>> 
>>> Several months ago, there was no interest by the division to address 
>>> cisco software or the topic of accessible comptia/Microsoft testing software.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> My point today deals with website captia systems.
>>> 
>>> You have probably had to ask for visual assistance with what happens 
>>> after you check the box with the words 'I am not a robot'.
>>> 
>>> Blind computer users are not going to know which pictures to click 
>>> when
>> the
>>> instruction says something like click all of the stop signs.
>>> 
>>> You will probably react by saying use aira and the person will tell 
>>> you where to move the mouse.
>>> 
>>> Well the cheapest plan is about $50 a month for only 60 minutes of 
>>> help time and that shouldn't be required.
>>> 
>>> I had to place an order today to get a great deal and couldn't wait 
>>> for someone to respond from the company and was able to create an 
>>> account
>> after
>>> obtaining visual assistance.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I continue to feel left to flap in the wind by the nfb/nfbcs and it 
>>> seems nothing is done once a year other than asking several people 
>>> to speak at the division meeting at the convention.
>>> 
>>> I'm sure this will ruffle feathers but so what, nothing is being 
>>> done anyway so tell me the purpose of the division!
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Bryan Schulz
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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