[nfbcs] purpose of division

Sun Nov 25 16:33:03 UTC 2018

Excellent response Steve. I'm afraid you already got the answer to your 
question just by looking at the subject of this post. There are also 
people out there, and I'm not saying Bryan is one of them, who when they 
don't get their pet issue addressed they just write off a company or an 
organization. I see this all of the time with Linux, with Google and so 
on. Gmail doesn't handled threads better so therefore Google doesn't 
care about accessibility. The eSpeak TTS is awful so therefore Linux 
will never be a viable desktop option for the blind. These are just two 
examples that come to the top of my head.

Back to the subject of this thread, it seems that in later posts this 
started talking about solving CAPTIAs. If Bryan or anyone else is really 
interested in this topic, then I'd suggest someone changing the subject 
line of one of the later messages in this thread to get more attention 
to the question about solving CAPTIA's. It's only because I looked at 
this with a different email program that I even read a message in this 
thread. Normally the subject line alone would have just had me hit the 
delete button on the whole thread.

On 11/24/18 2:44 PM, Steve Jacobson via nfbcs wrote:
> Bryan,
>
> When trying to figure out the purpose of your messages I am always left
> wondering if you really want an answer to questions or are you just wanting
> a chance to take a shot at us.  I think, though, there is a reasonable
> chance that trying to answer your questions is worthwhile.
>
> First, I don't know that NFBCS was ever seen as a vehicle for general
> advocacy.  That has always been more a function of our national organization
> as a whole.  As a long-time NFBCS member and officer, I do feel we serve a
> useful purpose by working with specific companies with which we have had
> long-term relationships and by trying to make information available.  Also,
> people on this list can sometimes be a useful resource in finding
> workarounds.  Collectively, we have expertise that can help to understand
> why a problem exists and maybe even help to prioritize which problems can
> likely be solved easily and which cannot.
>
> I readily admit that it is sometimes difficult to know where it is best to
> bring a concern about accessibility, though.  Sometimes some of us can help
> with that.  The cold hard facts, though, are that we still have too many
> accessibility issues to successfully deal with every one brought to our
> attention.  One of the areas I volunteer in is dealing with Microsoft.
> There are so many issues even with Microsoft that we are not able to push
> all of them effectively, even though we've seen a good deal of progress.
> Also, we need people who actually have the experience with a given problem
> to help.  I know nothing about the testing software you mention so can't
> deal with specifics of that very effectively.  I don't remember exactly how
> you brought the accessible comptia/Microsoft testing software  issues to
> NFBCS, but this isn't an issue with which I was familiar.  If you describe
> the issue in more detail, I am certainly willing to raise it with Microsoft
> whenever I am next in a meeting with them.  Even so, sometimes we have to
> decide where to push hardest.  An issue like this sometimes gets less
> emphasis than an issue like not being able to enter a password in Outlook
> when the credentials screen doesn't get focus because that may affect more
> people.
>
> One also has to understand that there is no law that says everything has to
> be accessible.  There are clear laws that require accessibility in specific
> cases, but this means that we can't just launch a lawsuit for any
> accessibility issue.  Sometimes the law covers institutions that use a given
> pice of software and not the actual creators of software, for example.  This
> doesn't mean there isn't anything that can be done, but it can affect the
> path taken, and it often means that solutions take a long time to find.  We
> need help from our members sometimes to really understand a problem and to
> document it and help us move forward with it.
>
> Finally, CAPTCHAs are a real challenge.  Some of us have been trying to
> affect their use for a long time.  I share your fear that the use of AIRA,
> Be My Eyes, and other such solutions may give some companies an excuse not
> to do anything, and this cannot become acceptable.  Audio CAPTCHAs are
> pretty common now and you didn't say if the company you dealt with had one
> or not.  This is a fairly accepted solution among those who require
> CAPTCHAs, but it still leaves out those who have both vision and hearing
> loss.  My experience has been that audio CAPTCHAs are more reliable now than
> they have been in the past.  I have personally looked at some alternatives
> that appear to work but turn out to have limitations.  When you look at the
> ability of SIRI, Alexa, and Google Home to analyze and break down the syntax
> of questions asked of them, it is clear that most word problem solutions
> offer limited protection from robots attempting to gain access to a system.
> It is starting to appear that Google is a major player in CAPTCHAs, though.
> Many companies use Google's CAPTCHA service.  Possibly that may provide a
> useful pressure point.
>
> Bryan, I realize this is probably not a satisfactory answer.  Also, the
> president of NFBCS may have more to say on this as well.  However, laying
> out the specific problems you are having, even on this list, can be helpful
> by making more of us aware of what people are encountering.  Also,
> sometimes, it may turn out somebody else has found a workaround or may be
> further along in pursuing a solution.  Finally, sometimes it is helpful to
> those of us who volunteer in this area to be reminded of the common
> frustrations being encountered.  This can help us know, both as the NFBCS
> division and as an organization as a whole, how we can most effectively
> approach issues.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Bryan Schulz via nfbcs
> Sent: Friday, November 23, 2018 3:49 PM
> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List' <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Bryan Schulz <b.schulz at sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: [nfbcs] purpose of division
>
> Hi,
>
>   
>
> This may be a bit off topic because it is actually a web site issue.
>
> In my opinion the cs division doesn't do much especially towards advocacy
> with topics that affect using computers/web sites.
>
> Several months ago, there was no interest by the division to address cisco
> software or the topic of accessible comptia/Microsoft testing software.
>
>   
>
> My point today deals with website captia systems.
>
> You have probably had to ask for visual assistance with what happens after
> you check the box with the words 'I am not a robot'.
>
> Blind computer users are not going to know which pictures to click when the
> instruction says something like click all of the stop signs.
>
> You will probably react by saying use aira and the person will tell you
> where to move the mouse.
>
> Well the cheapest plan is about $50 a month for only 60 minutes of help time
> and that shouldn't be required.
>
> I had to place an order today to get a great deal and couldn't wait for
> someone to respond from the company and was able to create an account after
> obtaining visual assistance.
>
>   
>
> I continue to feel left to flap in the wind by the nfb/nfbcs and it seems
> nothing is done once a year other than asking several people to speak at the
> division meeting at the convention.
>
> I'm sure this will ruffle feathers but so what, nothing is being done anyway
> so tell me the purpose of the division!
>
>   
>
> Bryan Schulz
>
>   
>
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> https://www.avg.com
> _______________________________________________
> nfbcs mailing list
> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nfbcs:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nfbcs mailing list
> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nfbcs:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/chaltain%40gmail.com

-- 
Christopher (CJ)
Chaltain at Gmail