[NFBCS] Linux users

Tue Aug 6 01:53:35 UTC 2019

This isn't my experience with the Gnome desktop at all. I was installing 
applications on Linux through either the software center or a single 
apt-get command when Windows still required you to find a web site where 
you could download the executable installer. Running a command on the 
command line for a application you haven't installed yet let's you know 
what package you need to install. I have a notifications pull down in my 
top bar. I hardly ever have to resort to going to a command line and 
resorting to typing cryptic commands.

On 8/5/19 7:31 PM, Andy Borka via NFBCS wrote:
> Microsoft is popular because it integrates social media and cultural 
> aspects of society into Windows. For example, the touchscreen, tablet 
> mode, settings sync, notifications in the action center... They 
> facilitate the need for people, especially the younger generations to 
> explore. Linux has the notion that whoever uses it does so because it 
> is either  required, or the user has to get work done. This isn't 
> true, but the new user in Windows just uses a feature that isn't quite 
> installed yet, and Microsoft takes care of the rest. They are personal 
> with the dialog messages as well. Linux users have to go to an obscure 
> location (terminal) and type a ton of cryptic commands (apt-get) and 
> watch a ton of scroll that means nothing. Why can't you suggest to 
> Linux that you want a feature, and have it take care of the rest? This 
> is why Grandmother doesn't want to use Linux.
>
>
> On 8/5/19 11:23 AM, Jack Heim via NFBCS wrote:
>> Well, when you say bash is the real power behind linux, I am guessing 
>> you mean that its main advantage for blind people is that almost 
>> everything can be done at the command line. Which is true. I know 
>> several blind sys admins who do not use the GUI. I think that is a 
>> mistake though. Email and text editing are big enough problems. But 
>> there is no substitute for a GUI web browser.
>>
>> The documentation for Linux is much, much better than that for any 
>> other operating system. Every question has already been asked and 
>> answered. All you have to do is google.
>>
>> I am not going to say that the linux GuI is as easy to use as 
>> Windows. There is a reason Microsoft is as successful as it is. But 
>> the Linux GUI is pretty good too.
>>
>> On 8/4/19 3:25 PM, Bryan Duarte wrote:
>>> Hello Jack,
>>>
>>> I appreciate your feedback. I agree with you that computers do what 
>>> we tell them too, after all that is what they are built to do. 
>>> Unfortunately computers are also built to execute software that we 
>>> build and that software does not always work as intended for the 
>>> same guiding principals you pointed out, they do what we tell them 
>>> to do. I teach software courses at Arizona State and I tell my 
>>> students every semester, you might have code that executes but just 
>>> because it executes does not mean that it is doing what you intended 
>>> it to do. I also agree Linux is a very useful and powerful operating 
>>> system. Unfortunately Linux is not the real power it is the bash or 
>>> equivalent shells that offer the real power. I asked my questions 
>>> this morning because I have always been interested in using a stand 
>>> alone Linux box but have always grown frustrated when tasks I am 
>>> trying to execute do not work as specified. I understand there is a 
>>> learning curve with any new technology including operating systems 
>>> or screen readers, but if the documentation for the OS and/or screen 
>>> reader do not work as stated I have a hard time believing it is user 
>>> error. Thank you for your suggestion on the linux orca list I am 
>>> actually a part of that list and have been for several years. I 
>>> never really post to the list mostly because I am not an orca user. 
>>> When I wrote this email this morning I just figured the NFB CS list 
>>> would be just as beneficial as the orca list for my question 
>>> especially after the CS division meeting focused on Linux during 
>>> Harry's presentation.
>>>
>>> Finally I would agree that there are great careers and opportunities 
>>> that open up to someone when they are able to interact with Linux 
>>> based systems. With this being said I have never had the need to 
>>> interact with a Linux based system through the GUI. I create, 
>>> manage, and deploy to Linux based systems all the time and I do it 
>>> all through the command line. I am well versed in bash and believe 
>>> any individual blind or not should have a strong command line 
>>> understanding if they are doing anything in software. I am a 
>>> software developer in the embedded systems and distributed 
>>> applications area so although I do a lot of client server 
>>> development and server management it is not my main focus for a 
>>> career at all. Again the main reason for my email was to simply gain 
>>> a better understanding of the experiences of those who are using 
>>> Linux desktop through the use of a screen reader. I acknowledge my 
>>> impatience in dedicating more time to really diving into Linux to 
>>> figure out all the kinks and methods but as any individual who 
>>> works, goes to school, or goes to school and works there is too 
>>> little time. Thank you again for all your feedback and sharing your 
>>> computer specs and version of Linux. I will have to look into speak 
>>> up a bit more but for now my focus is on learning how Orca can help 
>>> me to become a stand alone Linux user.
>>>
>>>
>>> Bryan Duarte | software engineer
>>>
>>> ASU Computer Science Ph.D Student
>>> Center for Cognitive Ubiquitous Computing (CUbiC Lab)
>>> IGERT Fellow
>>> Alliance for Person-centered Accessible Technology (APAcT)
>>> National Federation of the Blind of Arizona | Affiliate Board Member
>>> Phone: 480-652-3045
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Aug 4, 2019, at 10:28 AM, Jack Heim <john at johnheim.com 
>>>> <mailto:john at johnheim.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have a feeling that you are looking at this the wrong way. You 
>>>> say commands didn't work. But what that means is that you were 
>>>> typing the wrong thing. I mean, it's a computer, it does what you 
>>>> tell it to do. Switching operating systems is challenging even for 
>>>> sighted people. A blind person has to learn a screen reader at the 
>>>> same time. It can be incredibly frustrating. So only you can say 
>>>> whether the time and effort it will take to learn linux and orca is 
>>>> worth it to you.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I see that you are a CS student. I would highly recommend that you 
>>>> teach yourself to use linux. I think you are very much restricting 
>>>> your career opportunities if you don't. Linux is big at affirmative 
>>>> action employers like universities. At any one time at the 
>>>> University Of Wisconsin, there are probably 3 to 6 open positions 
>>>> for linux systems administrators. They're just aren't enough 
>>>> applicants for the jobs. In the private sector in Madison, WI, 
>>>> starting salary for a linux sysadmin is about $80k. I've been 
>>>> offered interviews in NYC and Silicon Valley for jobs paying $250k.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I use debian and ubuntu linux. Those are two of the best with 
>>>> respect to accessibility. I would recommend that you join the orca 
>>>> support email list. Orca has an extremely active support 
>>>> community.  Subscribe at orca-list-request at gnome.org 
>>>> <mailto:orca-list-request at gnome.org>.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 8/4/19 11:59 AM, Bryan Duarte wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for your response. I guess I should have been a bit more 
>>>>> specific. I use A Mac with voiceover and I live in the Unix 
>>>>> command line. I have no issue using Linux command line I have an 
>>>>> issue using the Linux desktop. I have never had any luck with 
>>>>> Linux with Orca in the Desktop environment. I bought a HP laptop 
>>>>> about a yer ago specifically to install Linux on it. I did and 
>>>>> found that commands did not work and I grew frustrated. I wanted 
>>>>> to use the command line which I was able to do but then commands 
>>>>> to review the stdout did not work,. If you have any further 
>>>>> feedback on what version of Linux you are running, maybe the specs 
>>>>> of your computer, Orca config, etc I would appreciate it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bryan Duarte
>>>>>
>>>>> PhD Computer Science Research student
>>>>> IGERT Fellow, CUbiC Lab, Arizona State University
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Aug 4, 2019, at 9:45 AM, Jack Heim <john at johnheim.com 
>>>>>> <mailto:john at johnheim.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have been using linux and orca so long I cannot really tell you 
>>>>>> how it compares to jaws or nvda. I manage the research computing 
>>>>>> cluster for the Math Department at the University Of Wisconsin. I 
>>>>>> think in 2019 it is fair to say that all computational research 
>>>>>> is done on linux machines. I haven't checked for years but the 
>>>>>> last couple of times I checked, all 500 of the top 500 
>>>>>> supercomputers were running linux. You have big problems if you 
>>>>>> are using a Windows desktop and a linux server. It is way easier 
>>>>>> just to switch to linux on your desktop. So I haven't used 
>>>>>> Windows for 20 years.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have a Mac laptop so I can kind of compare orca and voiceOver. 
>>>>>> I am no Mac expert. But I would say orca and voiceOver are 
>>>>>> approximately equally good.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 8/4/19 11:11 AM, Bryan Duarte via NFBCS wrote:
>>>>>>> Hey ya'll,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am sure to some this is a ridiculous question but I need to 
>>>>>>> ask any way. I have been using Linux for years but mostly 
>>>>>>> through an SSH connection to a server instance on either AWS or 
>>>>>>> a PI or designated server in my lab. My question is does any one 
>>>>>>> have any feedback on using it stand alone with Orca or some 
>>>>>>> other screen reader? If so plese share your experiences.
>>>>>>> Bryan Duarte
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> PhD Computer Science Research student
>>>>>>> IGERT Fellow, CUbiC Lab, Arizona State University
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>
>>>
>>
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-- 
Christopher (CJ)
Chaltain at Gmail