[NFBCS] Accessibility for programmers
Christopher Chaltain
chaltain at gmail.com
Sun Mar 1 16:25:58 UTC 2020
I think you do have a point. I also don't think it's a little
contradiction, but it also doesn't invalidate everything else you said.
I'm just saying the discussion needs to be more constructive and less
negative.
On 3/1/20 9:20 AM, Jack Heim wrote:
> Well, you did miss it. In fact, I volunteered an entire virtual
> server. I also volunteered to register a domain name. I volunteered to
> do a webinar/podcast on training yourself to be a Linux systems admin.
>
>
> Look, instead of casting about for ways to trash me because you don't
> like what I am saying, how about taking a step back and asking
> yourself if maybe I have a point. I don't think I have contradicted
> myself but what difference does it make? If you catch me in some
> little contradiction, does that invalidate everything I've said?
>
>
> On 3/1/20 1:44 AM, Christopher Chaltain wrote:
>
>> On one hand you say this isn't supposed to come from the ground up
>> and on the other hand you say that the NFB doesn't represent the vast
>> number of blind people in the country who don't attend the national
>> convention. This seems like a contradiction to me. If you don't want
>> to be part of the problem then you need to be part of the solution.
>> Where did I miss it, but when did you volunteer to host or contribute
>> to a wiki or a social networking page?
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2/29/20 9:23 PM, Jack Heim via NFBCS wrote:
>>> First of all, the vast majority of this stuff you can't just do
>>> without approval from the NFB. I can't just create a web presence
>>> for the NFBCS without authority from the NFB. But more importantly,
>>> its not supposed to come from the ground up. There was a spontaneous
>>> outburst of enthusiasm on this list for things we could do on behalf
>>> of blind IT professionals. Typically, its the other way around. Lots
>>> of groups have a problem, leadership asks if anybody wants to take
>>> on a responsibility and they get crickets back. The leaders of the
>>> NFB do not have that excuse. Who knows, maybe after this kurfuffle,
>>> they will. But, no, up to this point, they don't have a problem not
>>> getting enough volunteers because they haven't asked for any.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2/29/20 8:30 PM, Kevin via NFBCS wrote:
>>>> Now, I'm gonna say something. Please stand back, I need to clear
>>>> my throat. Okay, I'm ready. Saying the NFBCS isn't doing anything
>>>> is foolish because, you got it, we are the NFBCS. If we want
>>>> things done it is up to us, the volunteers. That is all.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 2/29/2020 9:22 PM, Jack Heim via NFBCS wrote:
>>>>> No, I have not missed the point. After all, I think we can all
>>>>> agree that the point is that blind IT professionals have needs?
>>>>> There is the problem of getting backwatered, lack of documentation
>>>>> on accessibility tricks, little to no advocacy on behalf of blind
>>>>> IT professionals. The NFBCS doesn't even have a web site. You
>>>>> google NFBCS and you pretty much come up empty. These are
>>>>> problems. Did anything in Brian's response indicate that the NFBCS
>>>>> was about to take on those issues? I don't think so.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The best proof of any theory is its power of prediction. Einstein
>>>>> predicted that the sun's rays would be bent by the moon's
>>>>> gravitational pull during an eclipse. When that prediction was
>>>>> borne out, it was considered proof of Einsteinn's theory. Well, I
>>>>> made a prediction. I am willing to wait.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2/29/20 2:49 PM, cathy at sks.com wrote:
>>>>>> I am not trying to be contentious, but I think you, Jack, have
>>>>>> missed the
>>>>>> point.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Completely read Brian's e-mail. He states in there that you can
>>>>>> now pay your
>>>>>> dues online and do not need to attend the convention to be a member.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brian reaches out in his e-mail to all of us to let him know if
>>>>>> we are
>>>>>> interested in helping take action on any of the items discussed
>>>>>> on this
>>>>>> list.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We in the NFB, are all volunteers with other things going on in
>>>>>> our lives.
>>>>>> The Division will not get anything accomplished if members don't
>>>>>> volunteer
>>>>>> to help. Brian, as our president, needs all of our help to make
>>>>>> things
>>>>>> happen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The main point of his e-mail is that he wants to make things
>>>>>> happen but
>>>>>> wants to find out if there are others that want to volunteer to
>>>>>> help. If
>>>>>> nobody volunteers, then probably nothing will happen. It is in
>>>>>> the hands of
>>>>>> the members to step up to the plate and help.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cathy Schroeder
>>>>>> E-mail: cathy at sks.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: NFBCS <nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Jack Heim via
>>>>>> NFBCS
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, February 29, 2020 2:07 PM
>>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Cc: Jack Heim <john at johnheim.com>; Steve Jacobson
>>>>>> <steve.jacobson at outlook.com>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [NFBCS] Accessibility for programmers
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brian, you missed the point.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The people on this list have been expressing some real needs and
>>>>>> it just so
>>>>>> happens that the NFBCS is uniquely situated to do something about
>>>>>> them.
>>>>>> There is an opportunity here. The NFBCS could be so much more
>>>>>> than just an
>>>>>> email list and an annual meeting. If that is going to happen, you
>>>>>> have to
>>>>>> choose to make it happen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Admittedly, that is your choice. But can you understand that it
>>>>>> is not
>>>>>> helpful to tell me that the rules of the NFB are such that I have
>>>>>> to attend
>>>>>> the convention to have a voice? A typical person's reaction to
>>>>>> that is not
>>>>>> going to be, "Well, if those are the rules, okay then." The NFB
>>>>>> starts every
>>>>>> press release talking about how big and influential it is but it
>>>>>> makes no
>>>>>> attempt to represent the vast majority of blind people who never
>>>>>> attend a
>>>>>> convention. Ask any member of the NFB about the ACB and they will
>>>>>> dismiss it
>>>>>> as meaningless and ineffective. True enough. But to me, all that
>>>>>> means is
>>>>>> that the NFB has that much more of an obligation to represent me.
>>>>>> If the NFB
>>>>>> isn't going to do this -- nobody is. So when you say that I have
>>>>>> to attend
>>>>>> the convention or I have no say, that is the same as telling me
>>>>>> that the NFB
>>>>>> is broken.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2/28/20 2:50 PM, Brian Buhrow via NFBCS wrote:
>>>>>>> hello list members. This is Brian Buhrow, current president
>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>> NFB in Computer Science, chiming into this topic. Although I'm
>>>>>>> coming
>>>>>>> into this discussion rather late, I have been following it and,
>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>> Steve, I am excited to see folks interested in working on some of
>>>>>>> these accessibility issues. Since a lot has been covered in this
>>>>>>> thread, I'll try to address some of the points I've seen in this
>>>>>>> discussion and, perhaps, clarify where I think we are as an NFB
>>>>>>> division and what my vision is going forward for the division. For
>>>>>>> those of you following this thread and contributing to it, if there
>>>>>>> are particular points you think I've missed in the below
>>>>>>> paragraphs,
>>>>>>> feel free to point them out in the discussion that's sure to
>>>>>>> follow this
>>>>>> message.
>>>>>>> 1. For those of you who don't know me, I'm a long time NFB
>>>>>>> member who
>>>>>>> has worked in the IT field for the past 25 years. My expertise
>>>>>>> is in
>>>>>>> the field of Unix/Linux system programming and networking, both in
>>>>>>> writing client and server software, as well as building and
>>>>>>> maintaining local and wide area IP networks. I also have a good
>>>>>>> deal
>>>>>>> of experience building and maintaining VOIP telephony networks and
>>>>>>> services. For purposes of computer access, I am totally blind and
>>>>>>> rely completely on braille and/or speech output to gain access
>>>>>>> to the
>>>>>>> systems I work on. Because I use a variety of equipment, I use a
>>>>>>> variety of access technologies. I'm proficient with VoiceOver for
>>>>>>> iOS, NVDA under Windows, a long time user of Jaws, and, thanks
>>>>>>> to Mike
>>>>>> Gorse, another member of this list, the Yasr program under Unix.
>>>>>>> It has long been my experience that creating access solutions which
>>>>>>> enable me to do my work have required thought, creativity, a lot of
>>>>>>> trial and error, much frustration on my part, and, some assistance
>>>>>>> from my colleagues and co-workers. As someone mentioned up
>>>>>>> thread on
>>>>>>> this list, I'm certain that I've missed opportunities in my
>>>>>>> career due
>>>>>>> to lack of accessibility, or my inability to think of a viable
>>>>>>> access
>>>>>>> solution, or just an assumption on my part that I couldn't do
>>>>>>> this or
>>>>>>> that. Getting "backwatered" in the IT field is a constant
>>>>>>> problem for
>>>>>>> everyone who works in it, and it is a particular problem for blind
>>>>>>> individuals, myself included. Still, with that said, my career has
>>>>>>> been a rewarding one that has allowed me to enjoy life,
>>>>>>> participate in
>>>>>>> a variety of exciting adventures and to join the society of my
>>>>>>> friends
>>>>>>> and neighbors as a first class citizen. The NFB and, by extension,
>>>>>>> the NFB CS division, has been a key element of that success because
>>>>>>> they gave me access to the likes of Steve Jacobson, Curtis Chong,
>>>>>>> Curtis Willoughby, Lloyd Rasmussen, Jim Barbour and John Miller,
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> to mention a vast array of other mentors and friends who could not
>>>>>>> only teach me a bit about how to do what I wanted, but who lead by
>>>>>>> example by doing it themselves. I hope that overview will help
>>>>>>> inform the
>>>>>> comments I have about particular issues in this thread that I'll
>>>>>> mention
>>>>>> below.
>>>>>>> 2. As Steve pointed out, the NFB CS Division is made up
>>>>>>> entirely of
>>>>>>> volunteers. That means the things that get done in the division
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> the ones folks find interesting to work on and which can be
>>>>>>> scheduled
>>>>>>> in available time. To that end, regarding the topic of an NFB
>>>>>>> CS web
>>>>>>> site or wikipedia, I think David Andrews said it best. It's not
>>>>>>> hard
>>>>>>> to build a web site or wikipedia pages, but maintaining them and
>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>> relevance is very difficult over time. A complaint I saw in this
>>>>>>> discussion was that folks didn't know how to find the kinds of
>>>>>>> information they were getting once they asked on this list. Since
>>>>>>> this list is archived and since there is a web site where the
>>>>>>> archives
>>>>>>> are stored and accessible, it seems that maybe what we should
>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>> about doing as a division is figuring out how to funnel folks to
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> archive so they can find the answers folks have provided on this
>>>>>>> list.
>>>>>>> As an example, Nicole provided a nice summary of the solution to
>>>>>>> her
>>>>>>> 3270 emulation software problem. There is not a real need, in my
>>>>>>> mind, to complicate the process of geting the word out to other
>>>>>>> folks by
>>>>>> asking her to write a formal wikipedia page explaining her fixes.
>>>>>>> Rather, a simple page explaining that we have this list and the
>>>>>>> best
>>>>>>> terms to type into Google to harvest what it has to offer seems
>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>> the quick and easy way to leverage this list as a valuable
>>>>>>> resource.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 3. As to the issue of accessible certification testing, I do
>>>>>>> see this
>>>>>>> as a barrier to job entry and, as such, I think it is something the
>>>>>>> division should try to address. I do not have the bandwidth or
>>>>>>> enough
>>>>>>> familiarity with the details of the problem to take the lead to
>>>>>>> work on
>>>>>> this issue.
>>>>>>> However, if there are folks who are willing and able to work on
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> issue and to cary it forward, possibly to formal actions, I'm
>>>>>>> willing
>>>>>>> to facilitate that work and help bring it to fruition, either by
>>>>>>> advocating for it on the national level, or by writing letters to
>>>>>>> appropriate individuals or agencies, or some combination of that
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> other means. Write me off list if you are willing and able to
>>>>>>> work on
>>>>>>> this issue and we'll figure out what steps need to be taken to
>>>>>>> get things
>>>>>> moving.
>>>>>>> 4. As an NFB national division, our business meeting, must, by
>>>>>>> definition, be held at the NFB national convention. That doesn't
>>>>>>> preclude us from holding other meetings throughout the year, but
>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>> official business meeting is at the NFB national convention. That
>>>>>>> said, beginning last year, we began offering the ability for
>>>>>>> folks to
>>>>>>> join the division on-line, allowing them to reep the benefits of
>>>>>>> NFB-CS
>>>>>> membership.
>>>>>>> Browse to:
>>>>>>> https://web.nfbcal.org/nfbcsreg
>>>>>>> to sign up as an NFB-CS member.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Today, membership gains you the right to receive a copy of the
>>>>>>> recording of the 2019 NFB-CS meeting held in Las Vegas last summer.
>>>>>>> In future, it will entitle you to access the archive of recordings
>>>>>>> from our past meetings. If you attend our business meeting, it
>>>>>>> gives
>>>>>>> you the right to vote. If you are interested in working on any
>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>> issues I've outlined in this e-mail, it would be my preference, but
>>>>>>> not a requirement, that you join the NFB-CS division as part of
>>>>>>> starting inon the work. In that way, you will be more officially
>>>>>>> connected with the division if any of the work becomes formal.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 5. Again, as Steve pointed out, most of the NFB-CS board
>>>>>>> monitors and
>>>>>>> participates in discussion on this list. Curtis Chong, our most
>>>>>>> recent past president and current treasurer, recently posted a
>>>>>>> treatise on the virtues of upgrading Windows to Windows 10 and
>>>>>>> trying
>>>>>>> out the new Microsoft Edge browser. Steve Jacobson, our vice
>>>>>>> president, regularly contributes insightful comments on various
>>>>>>> ongoing discussions. Jeanine Lineback, one of our board members,
>>>>>>> posts job postings for various accessibility related positions. I
>>>>>>> send out meeting related announcements regularly, and also try to
>>>>>>> contribute to discussions where I think my input might be helpful.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 6. In my mind, as I said earlier in this message, the real
>>>>>>> value to
>>>>>>> our division is the knowledge and experience of its members. This
>>>>>>> mailing list extends that knowledge and experience further
>>>>>>> because it
>>>>>>> includes many people who have a lot of experience but who are not
>>>>>>> officially members of the Division. I know some folks would
>>>>>>> like us
>>>>>>> to cater more toward people who are working in the computer
>>>>>>> science or
>>>>>>> IT fields. I understand that and have tried to move our agendas at
>>>>>>> our annual meeting in that direction by including at least one
>>>>>>> panel
>>>>>>> or topic of interest to folks working in the computing profession.
>>>>>>> last year, for example, Tom Moore gave an excellent talk on how to
>>>>>>> build and maintain AWS networks and servers with nonvisual tools.
>>>>>>> However, I don't see a lot of value in splitting our resources into
>>>>>>> two lists, those discussing computer sciencey issues and those
>>>>>>> asking
>>>>>>> general accessibility questions. The truth is, access technology
>>>>>>> being what it is, complicated, buggy and a moving target, every
>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>> computer professional I know has, at one time or another, been
>>>>>>> reduced
>>>>>>> to a neophyte user by a piece of buggy access technology, a buggy
>>>>>>> application, or just forgetting the magic sequence of commands or
>>>>>>> gestures to do a particular task with a particular ap from time to
>>>>>>> time. As such, my feeling is that we can all learn from every
>>>>>>> question that comes up on this list and for those of us who are
>>>>>>> more
>>>>>> sophisticated, we can provide our own filtering if there are
>>>>>> things we don't
>>>>>> want to follow on this list.
>>>>>>> I, for example, have a very strong knowledge of Unix/Linux, systems
>>>>>>> programming and integration, networking and VOIP systems.
>>>>>>> However, my
>>>>>>> knowledge of Windows is definitely not as complete. Therefore, I
>>>>>>> value the Windows questions that come up on this list because they
>>>>>>> teach me things I didn't know.
>>>>>>> Also, to that end, if there are things folks want us to work on
>>>>>>> as a
>>>>>>> division, I'm happy to entertain a discussion and potentially
>>>>>>> embark
>>>>>>> on the work, but I need your help to do it. So, when you think
>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>> suggestions for the Division to work on, also try to think about
>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>> we might go about working on them in a sustainable manner.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thank you for taking the time to read this missive. I hope
>>>>>>> it helps
>>>>>>> clarify how I see the Division. In the mean time, let's see if
>>>>>>> we can
>>>>>>> move some of these ideas in this thread forward, shall we?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -thanks
>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -Brian, President, NFB in Computer Science.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> NFBCS mailing list
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>>>>>>> info for
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>
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>>
--
Christopher (CJ)
Chaltain at Gmail
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