[Nfbf-l] Amtrak
Kirk
kvharmon54 at gmail.com
Sun Jun 14 02:35:42 UTC 2009
Marion,
Hmm! I didn't realize there was any underlying feelings involved here. I was
just trying to say, prior to your learned response from Am Track, which is
a critical part of my comments, that we have so much more to resolve in our
equality debate. I retracted my remarks after your learned comments were
jsent out! As far as leaders Marion, I believe we need to reach out in a
more educational and friendly manner to our sighted community to open there
eyes to our plight and as we do this interaction they will realize why we
feel like we do and why we need laws changed before we go right down their
throats all the time! As a Sighted person for 42 years of sight I have
been fortunate enough to have been on both sides of the fence and know what
and how there side feels about us, Whether we like it or not. We do act
differently than the sighted world , as there vision can compare the
pedestrians walking about and us among them. andThis makes us quite obvious
among them that we are blinded for sure. If this offends anyone of us,
well then I am truly sorry, but it is the reality of our lives! So, perhaps
we could ttry to make them to understand us by starting to participate in
our sighted communities activities to help them see us more with there
brains rather than there vision!!! Marion, this is where I feel we are
failing the most! If we educated them by mixing with them more, perhaps
they would work more earnestly to see that our needs are implemented thru
our Laws. Since I started advocating for the blind in Orlando, I have built
a repore with all of our sighted Commissioners one on one, both of our
Mayors and there staffs, even to the point of having them to my home to
discuss with other blind leaders here to here our side and get a better
understanding of our ability's and intellegence I have also included
business leaders, Teachers and children, ETC. I have also reached out to
our future by creating a meet the blind festive stand for the kids to try
our short obstacle course with an adjustable white cane and blinders with
the cooperation of our city officials for which we had candy for them at
the end, we had a member have them try to trick them with the change we had
them choose and of course he always ggot it right! We had a couple of our
guide dog users there to show them the proper way to approach a person with
one. They came to us aprehencive and shy and once we intermingled with them,
joked with them, and taught them how we are just like them with a
disability, they ran away giggling and running with their white and blue
balloons and more in tune with the fact the we are not white eyed monsters
coming out of the back alleys but simply people. My belief is that these
kids will grow up and become our next politicians, lawmakers, attorneys,
ETC. When they do and they recieve a law in our favor come across their desk
they will remenice of the time the old blind man had magic in his hands by
knowing all the coins! have been able to lighten there reception of me and
what I convey to all of them. Not by threat, but by social skills and
letting them all know that I understand how they feel but once they can
understand what our needs are and that we are not any different than they
in most cases, they seem to be more rrelaxed and responsivve to work with
us for the change for us! For us to ask assistance for one minute and then
demanding to be given our independence the next, is quite confusing to the
sighted community which can see us as angry demanding people. I don't feel
that this is the image we want them to feel about us, do You? I feel this is
definitely not the way to change the sighted community's mind about usand
gain their support. As far as Hollyis concerned, I like her and her father,
Jerry, very much! They are a true asset to the NFBFL and our Orlando
community. I also, respect your work Marion, and know you believe in your
approach and that is good. As if anyone advocates for something they are not
truly heartfelt about, then nothing but inaffective results and conditions
will appear! I hope these comments don't give you and many more leaders in
the NFbFL more reason to get upset with my feelings over my belief that
we can and should speak out whether it is respected or appreciaited or not!
I do apologize for the long, and at times rambling response! Your friend in
the cause, KH
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marion & Martin" <swampfox1833 at verizon.net>
To: "NFB of Florida Listserv" <nfbf-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 6:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Nfbf-l] Amtrak
> Kirk,
> The lengthy explanation was not necessarily directed to you; rather, to
> everyone who might read my comments, whether on this list or not. Keep in
> mind that our list archives are available for anyone to view who has
> access to the internet. Furthermore, as my message stated, I was hoping
> our leaders would realize that, as a civil rights organization, we have
> the responsibility to get the facts about alleged discriminatory practices
> and not minimize or rationalize them because it didn't happen to them or
> because of their personal feelings about the person who reports them.
>
> Fraternally,
> Marion Gwizdala
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kirk" <kvharmon54 at gmail.com>
> To: "NFB of Florida Listserv" <nfbf-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 11:37 AM
> Subject: Re: [Nfbf-l] Amtrak
>
>
>> Marion, as far as your reply, I could have done without the fact sheet
>> sent my way on our civil liberty's and equal rights, as I, too, have read
>> these. In reference to the issue, You have and are doing a fine job with
>> all that you do on behalf of the blind. I was not trying by any stretch
>> of the imagination to make slight of this matter, I just thought their
>> were bigger fish to fry for our cause and I didn't here any comments from
>> am track until your response. Now, after saying that, I send a
>> rertraction out to all that read it! Your friend in the cause, Kirk
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Marion & Martin" <swampfox1833 at verizon.net>
>> To: "NFB of Florida Listserv" <nfbf-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 7:14 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Nfbf-l] Amtrak
>>
>>
>>> Kirk,
>>> With all due respect, I disagree with the comment that "too much is
>>> being made of this"! I am also very disappointed that Holly's concerns
>>> are being discounted by our leadership, especially when she has the
>>> physical evidence of such a practice. We are, first of all, a civil
>>> rights organization. Why is our leadership unwilling to at least look
>>> into the possibility that Amtrak violated one of our members civil
>>> rights, choosing to discount the discrimination?
>>> I contacted Amtrak and spoke with a Customer Service Representative
>>> who identified himself as Manne. I was told that it is Amtrak's policy
>>> to place such a sign identifying blind and visually impaired patrons so
>>> that they "know who needs help"! I specifically asked if the person has
>>> a choice as to whether or not such a placard is placed at their seat and
>>> I was told that the person is neither asked nor has a choice.
>>> As to why some did not have such a placard while others did, perhaps
>>> it is because some did not have anything that would identify them as a
>>> blind person, e.g., a white cane or guide dog.
>>> The further question may be if such a practice is discriminatory. As
>>> the President of the National Association of Guide Dog Users, I am
>>> frequently asked to intervene in incidents in which discrimination is
>>> alleged. Discrimination is defined as "differential treatment based upon
>>> a characteristic". The Americans with Disabilities Act defines three
>>> types of discrimination:
>>>
>>> 1. Denial of Benefit;
>>> 2. Unequal Benefit; and
>>> 3. Separate Benefit.
>>>
>>> Placing a sign over someone's seat alerting others to one's disability
>>> may be viewed as an "unequal benefit", since not everyone has such a
>>> sign describing to others specific characteristics. One way I frequently
>>> use to ascertain whether a practice is discriminatory and to describe to
>>> others what may be discriminatory is to ask, "If this were done based
>>> upon race or ethnic origin, would it be considered discriminatory?" So,
>>> I will ask each of you, "If a sign were placed over someone's seat
>>> stating that the person sitting there is black, would this be
>>> discriminatory?
>>> Section 501(d) of the ADA also states
>>>
>>> "Nothing in this Act shall be construed to require an individual with a
>>> disability to accept an accommodation, aid, service, opportunity, or
>>> benefit which such individual chooses not to accept."
>>>
>>>
>>> Since the individual does not have the right to refuse this service, it
>>> could also be argued that this lack of choice to be identified publicly
>>> as an individual who is blind is a violation of the ADA.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Kirk" <kvharmon54 at gmail.com>
>>> To: "NFB of Florida Listserv" <nfbf-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 9:06 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Nfbf-l] Amtrak
>>>
>>>
>>>> Judith, My thoughts are that I think there is too much vbeing made of
>>>> this subject, but like yourself, it is just one man's opinion. Your
>>>> friend in the cause, Kirk
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Judith Hamilton" <jrhamilton51 at earthlink.net>
>>>> To: "NFB of Florida Listserv" <nfbf-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 12:12 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Nfbf-l] Amtrak
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Just my 2 cent input, but the only thing that I noticed was a white
>>>>> paper
>>>>> tag that I knocked off the rack when I was getting my bag to depart at
>>>>> the
>>>>> Lakeland station and all it said was "JAX" for Jacksonville. The
>>>>> passenger
>>>>> in the seat next to mine was going to Jacksonville and she was just a
>>>>> traveller like everyone else on the train. I think she got on in
>>>>> Miami
>>>>> where the train started.
>>>>> Judy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> [Original Message]
>>>>>> From: Dan Hicks <danjhicks at yahoo.com>
>>>>>> To: NFB of Florida Listserv <nfbf-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Date: 6/11/2009 10:03:25 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Nfbf-l] Amtrak
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In a word, nope. There was a little sign above our seat. It was white
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> said something, probably about our destination, but I really don't
>>>>> remember.
>>>>>> I am sure it did not say anything strange like "VI DFB Keep In
>>>>>> Sight."
>>>>> And
>>>>>> the same sign was above Gloria's and my seats and those of others
>>>>>> who
>>>>> were
>>>>>> not with our group. I am sure that nobody followed me from car to
>>>>>> car. I
>>>>>> don't think they have the staff to do that, unless you happen to
>>>>>> resemble
>>>>> a
>>>>>> wanted criminal or something.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "If you are going to walk on thin ice,
>>>>>> you might as well dance."
>>>>>> - Inuit Proverb
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Holly" <hbeanie at gmail.com>
>>>>>> To: "NFB of Florida Listserv" <nfbf-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 2:19 PM
>>>>>> Subject: [Nfbf-l] Amtrak
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > Did anyone notice that while riding Amtrak, there was a green label
>>>>> placed
>>>>>> > above the seat in which read, "VI DFB Keep In Sight"
>>>>>> > When students or myself went from car to car we were followed by
>>>>>> > one of
>>>>>> > the
>>>>>> > employees. Did this happen to you?
>>>>>> > Holly
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > --
>>>>>> > "God gives you 86,400 seconds in a day. Take one to say Thank You."
>>>>>> > Walter A. Ward
>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>> > Nfbf-l mailing list
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>>>>>> > Nfbf-l:
>>>>>> >
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbf-l_nfbnet.org/danjhicks%40yahoo.co
>>>>> m
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
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