[nfbmi-talk] Should Students Participate in College Costs?

Tue Mar 16 19:36:24 UTC 2010

Fred,
I wasn't suggest we change any of our previous resolutions, rather was just 
giving my personal oppinoin on the matter. I certainly understand the 
importance of unity when it comes to situations like this.
Thanks for tyour excellent insight on this topic.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Fred Wurtzel" <f.wurtzel at comcast.net>
To: "'NFB of Michigan List'" <nfbmi-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:21 AM
Subject: Re: [nfbmi-talk] Should Students Participate in College Costs?

> Hello,
>
> I have some thoughts on this thread.
>
> First, there is nothing prohibiting any student from paying all of their
> college costs, now.  After reading the tone of some of these comments, it
> seems like there is a little bit of judgementalism creeping in.  A college
> education is a way to level the playing field for blind people.  If any
> student is in a position to take on debt or pay up front, more power to
> them.  If another is not able to do so, there is a program passed by
> Congress to provide assistance.  There is no particular virtue in paying
> your way or any shame in taking advantage of available assistance.  If the
> Commission has this assistance available, everyone ought to have full and
> equal access to it regardless of circumstances.  Means tests are very
> destructive.  I have seen 2 people in some states where there are means
> tests treated very differently, though there circumstances were virtually
> identical.  This is not right.  We may want there to be no discrimination,
> however, it still exists.  Blindness still limits job opportunities and
> holds some people down in their ability to earn as much as a similarly
> situated sighted person.  I understand the equal treatment argument.  Dr.
> Jernigan wrote a speech about the pros and cons of preferential treatment.
> I encourage you to read it.  There can be negative effects of taking
> preferential treatment.  A college education is arguably the best path to
> opportunity.  Paying taxes and being a first-class citizen is a way of
> paying back for the privilege of having help with school.  Not getting a
> degree may prevent individuals from ever having the chance to pay taxes 
> and
> fully participating in all the wonderful gifts of citizenship.
>
> Second, we, together have adopted a position on our collective wishes for 
> a
> college policy, as an organization.  Everyone is certainly welcome to 
> their
> views, but as an organization we are working to accomplish mutually
> developed goals.  We have passed more than one resolution on college 
> policy.
> Resolutions are our way to develop positions for our organization.  If we
> decide to change our position it needs to be decided together.  It is in 
> all
> of our interests to show unity on organizational matters.  Whether we are
> working to assist Christine to get her job back or assure people who are
> blind can rent apartments or work in the job of their choice, our ability 
> to
> be successful depends on our solidarity.
>
> We have a tradition of fighting like cats and dogs until a position is
> arrived at.  After that we support each other until we succeed.
>
> I am trying not to be a finger wagging old fogy.  The old fogy part is
> unavoidable.  I am trying to talk about what has made us strong and
> successful as an organization.
>
> Warmest Regards,
>
> Fred
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbmi-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbmi-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On Behalf Of J.J. Meddaugh
> Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 6:29 PM
> To: NFB of Michigan List
> Subject: Re: [nfbmi-talk] Should Students Participate in College Costs?
>
> Elizabeth,
> Speaking as someone with a student loan currently, there are several
> programs in place by the government to allow for delayed payments of 
> student
>
> loans. Essentially, those meaning certain income requirements have the
> ability to have their loan payments defered until a time where they can
> afford to pay. Also, there are several payment options available, and as
> long as one is in communication with the government about the loan, there
> are ample opportunities to make suitable payment arrangements.
> Hope this helps.
>
>
>
> J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com
> A premier Licensed Code Factory and KNFB Reader distributor
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Elizabeth" <lizmohnke at hotmail.com>
> To: <nfbmi-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 5:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [nfbmi-talk] Should Students Participate in College Costs?
>
>
>>
>> I agree with your thoughts, but should blind students be required to take
>> out loans for college when the unemployment rate is higher among the 
>> blind
>
>> then it is for the general population? I understand that right now it is
>> difficult for anyone to find and keep a job, but it seems as though it is
>> even more difficult for a blind person to find and keep a job. So with
>> this in mind, should blind students still be required to take out loans
>> that they may not be able to pay back to fund their college education?
>>
>> Respectfully,
>> Elizabeth
>>
>> > From: jj at bestmidi.com
>>> To: nfbmi-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 12:36:36 -0400
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbmi-talk] Should Students Participate in College Costs?
>>>
>>> Personally, I am not opposed to the idea of students paying for their 
>>> own
>>> educational expenses with the help of student loans, PEL Grants, and
>>> whatever other means are necessary. This type of drastic shift would 
>>> need
>
>>> to
>>> be phased in over time and account for other circumstances where this
>>> type
>>> of policy would not make sense. But if we want to be considered as
>>> equals,
>>> we need to pay as equals. This policy would also allow for a major
>>> redirection in funds to hire additional counselors, pay for much-needed
>>> technology, provide braille textbooks where appropriate, and improve
>>> training opportunities. In essence, any expense that would not be
>>> realized
>>> by a sighted individual would be covered.
>>> I realize not all would be in favor of this shift, but I feel it could
>>> ultimately lead to better services if implemented correctly.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com
>>> A premier Licensed Code Factory and KNFB Reader distributor
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Fred Wurtzel" <f.wurtzel at comcast.net>
>>> To: "'NFB of Michigan List'" <nfbmi-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 11:31 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbmi-talk] Should Students Participate in College Costs?
>>>
>>>
>>> > Hi Elizabeth,
>>> >
>>> > I agree, completely, with what you say, here. Though Geri Taeckens has
>>> > worked hard and has made some positive improvements, this policy is
>>> > severly
>>> > lacking and is an anti blind student policy document. It needs to be
>>> > thrown
>>> > out and written from the ground upp.
>>> >
>>> > If the Commission wants the college to complete another form, it needs
>>> > to
>>> > be
>>> > their responsibility to do so, not the student's. It will turn into a
>>> > gotcha game and keep some eligible people from going to school. The
>>> > federal
>>> > government already asks for all the needed information, why should the
>>> > student have to do it again?
>>> >
>>> > How about not giving those who change majors additional time. In some
>>> > cases, it may add another year to the time needed to finish. If the 
>>> > IPE
>>> > approves a change, then all policies for college attendance should 
>>> > then
>>> > apply.
>>> >
>>> > Even though the MOU section has been changed, it still does not 
>>> > require
>>> > the
>>> > Commission to step in and resolve the problem. Despite promises at our
>>> > convention, Kerry Bradly did not ever get her math book in Braille. 
>>> > The
>>> > Commission was not able to do a simple thing like get a book Brailled,
>>> > how
>>> > will they resolve complex technical problems?
>>> >
>>> > I hope students are in the audience on Friday to voice their concerns
>>> > and
>>> > objections to this horrible policy.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>> > From: nfbmi-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>> > [mailto:nfbmi-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>> > On Behalf Of Elizabeth
>>> > Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 10:48 PM
>>> > To: nfbmi-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> > Subject: [nfbmi-talk] Should Students Participate in College Costs?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Thanks to all of you who have commented on my revisions to the college
>>> > policy either on or off the list. However, as I have thought about 
>>> > some
>>> > things a bit more, I am wondering weather or not college students
>>> > should
>>> > help with the cost of going to college. In a previous version I
>>> > submitted
>>> > to
>>> > the Consumer Involvement Committee Chair, I included a section on
>>> > students
>>> > contributing financially to the costs of their college education based
>>> > on
>>> > the dollar amount awarded to those who receive Supplemental Security
>>> > Income.
>>> > I did not include it in this draft simply because it sounded a bit
>>> > confusing
>>> > to me, and I was not quite sure how to write it so that it would be
>>> > less
>>> > confusing. I will post it below for your comments and suggestions.
>>> >
>>> > But I guess what I am really wondering is weather or not students
>>> > should
>>> > be
>>> > responsible for contributing financially to the costs of their college
>>> > education. I am currently not a consumer of the agency, nor do I live
>>> > on
>>> > campus, so I cannot comment on whether or not this is currently the
>>> > procedure. However, from what little I have heard about the new DELEG
>>> > form
>>> > is that it would require all students to write down all their current
>>> > expenses and sources of income to determine how much a student's
>>> > family,
>>> > not
>>> > the individual student, can financially contribute towards their
>>> > college
>>> > education.
>>> >
>>> > Personally, I am not in favor of this new system for a couple of
>>> > reasons.
>>> > The first one being that I don't think it is the Commission's business
>>> > to
>>> > know every detail of how a student chooses to spend, save, and use
>>> > every
>>> > cent of their income. Second, I don't think that it is right for the
>>> > Commission to consider the income of student's parents when they are
>>> > serving
>>> > the individual and not the family. The last time I checked, the income
>>> > of
>>> > someone's parent, especially for someone over the age of eighteen, was
>>> > not
>>> > a
>>> > source of comparable benefits. And finally, looking at a students
>>> > income
>>> > as
>>> > a way to determine vocational services is basically saying that you
>>> > have
>>> > to
>>> > pay to play, or in this case to receive an education. And since the
>>> > income
>>> > of the student's parents is considered as part of the equation, the
>>> > amount
>>> > the student has to pay could very well be beyond what the student can
>>> > afford.
>>> >
>>> > So, I don't know, should students be required to help pay for their
>>> > college
>>> > education, and if so, how exactly do we create a system that is simple
>>> > and
>>> > fair to all students? I mean, after all, the client of the Commission
>>> > is
>>> > the
>>> > student and not the student's parents. And even though the financial
>>> > aid
>>> > system may include the parent's income, does that mean that the
>>> > Commission
>>> > needs to do the same as well even though they are serving the student
>>> > and
>>> > not the parents? Anyways, who the heck knows, maybe I'm just making a
>>> > mountain out of a mole hill, but I'm just a little ticked off that the
>>> > Commission has been working on this thing for almost two years now, 
>>> > and
>>> > still has yet to have a discussion about this new DELEG form that
>>> > appears
>>> > to
>>> > be magically hidden into the policy. I don't know, I guess I'm just
>>> > pissed
>>> > off about the whole process in general, and the fact that the college
>>> > policy
>>> > is on the agenda when I was told that it would not be ready in time 
>>> > for
>>> > this
>>> > meeting.
>>> >
>>> > Elizabeth
>>> >
>>> > --------------------------
>>> >
>>> > Student Contribution:
>>> >
>>> > Students requesting sponsorship from the Michigan Commission for the
>>> > Blind
>>> > will be required to make a small contribution to their college or
>>> > vocational
>>> > training. The purpose of this contribution is to prepare students for
>>> > financial responsibility after graduation. Before a student can 
>>> > receive
>>> > sponsorship from the Michigan Commission for the Blind, they must
>>> > complete
>>> > and sign a copy of the Student Contribution form indicating their 
>>> > level
>
>>> > of
>>> > contribution. Students giving a financial contribution shall be
>>> > responsible
>>> > for making payments directly to the college or university. If students
>>> > cannot make the payment all at once, they are encouraged to ask the
>>> > college
>>> > or university about monthly payment plans.
>>> >
>>> > All students who choose to live on campus and subscribe to a dining
>>> > program
>>> > will be required to pay the register's office one-half the current
>>> > amount
>>> > awarded to Supplemental Security Income (SSI) beneficiaries. All
>>> > students
>>> > who choose to live on campus, but do not subscribe to a dining service
>>> > will
>>> > be required to pay the register's office one-third the amount awarded
>>> > to
>>> > Supplemental Security Income (SSI) beneficiaries. Any student who does
>>> > not
>>> > live on campus will be responsible for all expenses associated with
>>> > off-campus housing. It will be expected that all students will be
>>> > responsible for making this contribution regardless of their level of
>>> > income.
>>> >
>>> > _________________________________________________________________
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