[blindkid] Guide dogs for twelve year olds?

Heather craney07 at rochester.rr.com
Fri Jan 22 01:33:34 UTC 2010


I guess what really bothers me is the school that is in question here, 
coupled with the age factor.  Were it a larger, nationally known school like 
the Seeing Eye, or were it run in part or dirrected in part by a parents 
group or a guide dog users' group from a major blindness organization, like 
the NFB, I might feel differently.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 12:59 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Guide dogs for twelve year olds?


> Nothing to add to that accept a loud speaker!
>
> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
> CEO/Founder
> My Blind Spot, Inc.
> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
> New York, New York  10004
> www.myblindspot.org
> PH: 917-553-0347
> Fax: 212-858-5759
> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
> doing it."
>
>
> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Richard Holloway
> Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 1:11 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Guide dogs for twelve year olds?
>
> The thing is, as a society we really don't do that very well, do we?--
> We don't set a single age for much of anything. Many states let you
> drive at 16. Some at 15. One state apparently extends driving age down
> to 13 in some cases (for farm equipment) and 14 is possible in at
> least one other state-- this apparently alone and on public roads, at
> least in some circumstances. Worldwide, minimum driving ages range
> from at least 14 on public roads up to 18, perhaps older. I understand
> that drinking ages (for drinking in public) range worldwide from age
> 15 to age 25 and ages 16 to 21 are found in a great many different
> places.  There are so many arbitrary cutoffs like that-- do we need
> another one?
>
> I keep hearing how many hours and how much effort it takes to train a
> guide dog. I believe that must be true; no argument here. So, if
> people can invest that much effort in training a guide dog, can't they
> choose to employ a process whereby they spend reasonable amount of
> time in determining who should get these dogs as opposed to relying on
> an arbitrary cutoff age to eliminate some people?
>
> I'm not trying to compel any guide dog school to give dogs to young
> kids or to insist that there are actually 12-year-olds who are even
> ready-- I don't know. I am simply intrigued by the notion that a
> school was (presumably) willing to look at younger kids and see if any
> of them might be candidates for guide dog ownership. Wasn't that what
> we were first discussing? I still don't see anything wrong with that.
> Who am I to protest and say to them, "how dare you try and help that
> child with a guide dog-- how inappropriate of you!!!"?
>
> I just don't think it is about age, it is about readiness. If that
> school wants to explore working with the right children who are
> somewhat younger than the traditional cutoff, I don't see the harm in
> looking into it. I have pondered this a good deal and I agree that
> there are probably very few 12-year-olds who would be ready, but by 14
> or 15, it seems less outrageous of an idea.
>
> Society seems to do this strange thing on both ends of the scale--
> once we get old enough, people again begin to assume that due to age
> we will not be able to be responsible for ourselves or to care for
> ourselves. Some of us will not, but some of us will. I hope I am one
> of the lucky ones who can get by without help but how frustrating to
> know that if I am, there will likely be some who would take away my
> freedom to make certain choices because they fear I MIGHT be (or
> become) incompetent due to age, but that too is another discussion.
>
> Richard
>
>
>
>
> On Jan 21, 2010, at 12:08 AM, Carol Castellano wrote:
>
>> I dunno.  Maybe it's like driving.  We (society) have decided on an
>> age before which we don't think kids are mature enough.  There may
>> be a 12 year old or two who would be able to handle all the
>> responsibilities, but we don't extend the option down that far.
>> Carol
>>
>> At 11:18 AM 1/20/2010, you wrote:
>>> Carol,
>>>
>>> Having no direct knowledge of the process by which guide dog
>>> ownership
>>> and placement is determined, I would assume that your main concerns
>>> would (or should) all be addressed in the process of applying to
>>> get a
>>> guide dog for people of ANY age, is it not?
>>>
>>> It seems like guide dogs are not the primary choice of most blind
>>> adults and I would suspect they are appropriate for even a smaller
>>> percentage of young people, but I cannot see the harm in additional
>>> study to determine if this is a good and helpful option for some
>>> (however few) kids under 16.
>>>
>>> To be sure, your concerns are well received and I agree with them in
>>> general, but again, I am very hesitant to decide something is a bad
>>> idea for everyone when (as far as I know) this has really never been
>>> tried. I guess what I'm driving at the most is I think this would be
>>> best determined by many factors apart from age, per se. One person
>>> might be ready at 12 or 15, Another, not until his or her mid-20's
>>> (if
>>> ever).
>>>
>>> Richard
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jan 20, 2010, at 10:53 AM, Carol Castellano wrote:
>>>
>>>> Well, I'll chime in with a different view.  My experience observing
>>>> young guide dog users leads me to believe that even at 16 or 17, it
>>>> is the RARE young person who has the required all-around ability to
>>>> use a guide dog.  I have no statistics for this; my opinion is based
>>>> only on observations...over the past 20 years or so.
>>>>
>>>> Another concern I would have for allowing a 12-year-old to use a dog
>>>> is that in order to be a good traveler with a dog, the blind person
>>>> needs to be a good traveler in general.  A person would need a lot
>>>> of experience in all aspects of travel in order to be successful
>>>> with a dog.  For example, much information needs to be kept in mind
>>>> when traveling without the direct contact with landmarks, etc., that
>>>> cane travel provides.  How many 12-year-olds have such experience?
>>>> Have they traveled much independently at that point?
>>>>
>>>> Last but not least, many people out there--some parents included--
>>>> believe that a guide dog would protect their child and take him/her
>>>> places safely.  They see dog use as a panacea for what they perceive
>>>> as the travel difficulties and safety issues facing their blind
>>>> child.  This is no basis for getting a guide dog!
>>>>
>>>> So, all in all, my feeling would be against this idea.
>>>>
>>>> Carol
>>>>
>>>> Carol Castellano, President
>>>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
>>>> 973-377-0976
>>>> carol_castellano at verizon.net
>>>> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>>>>
>>>> At 10:09 AM 1/20/2010, you wrote:
>>>>> Here here!  Wy set the bar low when in fact a child of 12 years or
>>>>> 13 years
>>>>> has the capacity and maturity to handle the responsibility? Isn't
>>>>> it our
>>>>> responsibility  to give all children those tools they need based
>>>>> upon their
>>>>> individual abilities to achieve all things possible in their lives.
>>>>> I do not
>>>>> see the reason for nor the reluctance  to allow any teenager an
>>>>> opportunity
>>>>> to exercise their choice for mobility and that it include a guide
>>>>> dog.
>>>>>
>>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>>> New York, New York  10004
>>>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one
>>>>> who is
>>>>> doing it."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid- bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>> ] On
>>>>> Behalf Of Doreen Frappier
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 9:40 AM
>>>>> To: (for parents of blind children)NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List
>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Guide dogs for twelve year olds?
>>>>>
>>>>> I am not opposed to having responsible 12 year olds own and care
>>>>> for a guide
>>>>> dog.  I believe that children mature at different rates. For
>>>>> example, 4-H
>>>>> children own and care for animals (on their own) at very young
>>>>> ages.  They
>>>>> are responsible for feeding and caring for that animal. One of my
>>>>> children,
>>>>> (sighted) is 13, and has been the sole trainer of a dog since she
>>>>> was 9
>>>>> years old.  She has won many awards and competitions with her dog,
>>>>> including
>>>>> adult dog shows. She is responsible for feeding and caring for that
>>>>> dog.
>>>>> When the dog gets her check ups at the vet, she comes to the vets
>>>>> office.
>>>>> It's true, a young person can not take care of the expenses of a
>>>>> guide dog,
>>>>> but I am all for training teaching blind children to be independent
>>>>> as early
>>>>> as possible. I think each situation is different.  I am not aware
>>>>> of
>>>>> everything that goes into caring for and owning a guide dog, but I
>>>>> think
>>>>> some children are capable and should not be excluded because of
>>>>> age.
>>>>>
>>>>> Doreen
>>>>>
>>>>> --- On Wed, 1/20/10, Heather <craney07 at rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Heather <craney07 at rochester.rr.com>
>>>>> Subject: [blindkid] Guide dogs for twelve year olds?
>>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind
>>>>> children)"
>>>>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Date: Wednesday, January 20, 2010, 7:22 AM
>>>>>
>>>>> I just wanted to get some feedback on this from some parents of
>>>>> blind
>>>>> children and teens.  I, personally, was absolutely apalled to hear
>>>>> that a
>>>>> local guide dog school, not mentioning names *coughs* Freedom guide
>>>>> Dogs
>>>>> *Coughs* has preposed a program to place guide dogs with twelve
>>>>> year olds.
>>>>> All of the other schools in the US accept teens no younger than
>>>>> sixteen or
>>>>> eighteen years of age, depending on the school, but twelve?  I am
>>>>> happy to
>>>>> note that at present, no O and M instructors, parents or twelve
>>>>> year olds
>>>>> have contacted the school to enquire about this program, but I am
>>>>> dreading
>>>>> the day.  This makes a mockery of those exceptional blind teens who
>>>>> are, at
>>>>> sixteen or seventeen, responsible enough, committed enough and have
>>>>> demanding enough schedules to properly care for, utalize and
>>>>> actually need a
>>>>> guide dog.  At what age would you consider supporting your teen in
>>>>> researching guide dog schools?  At what age would you support them
>>>>> actually
>>>>> submitting applications?  How old would you want your teen to be
>>>>> before
>>>>> actually being placed with a guide dog?  Do you think that you
>>>>> would have
>>>>> the blunt honesty to deny your support of your child getting a dog
>>>>> guide, if
>>>>> they were not emotionally, mentally, etc capable of utalizing a
>>>>> guide dog,
>>>>> at that time in their life?  Do you think that you could restrain
>>>>> yourself
>>>>> from taking care of the dog, interacting with the dog, or doing
>>>>> things that
>>>>> would undermine the ownership of the dog by your blind teen,
>>>>> acknowledging
>>>>> their sole ownership and responsibility for the dog, even if you,
>>>>> as their
>>>>> mother or father still have all other rule-making power in the
>>>>> house-hold?
>>>>> Finally, would you ever, honestly let your twelve year old apply
>>>>> for a guide
>>>>> dog?  I just felt this should be brought to the list's attention.
>>>>> Just me
>>>>> personally, I would not encourage my blind teen to start
>>>>> researching guide
>>>>> dog schools until age fourteen or fifteen, and I would not
>>>>> allow them to apply to schools until they were at least fifteen,
>>>>> and that
>>>>> is assuming that they are emotionally ready to deal with the
>>>>> demands of a
>>>>> guide dog, such as handeling an emergency vet situation, mentally
>>>>> able to
>>>>> care for the dog, such as, researching and selecting safe toys,
>>>>> effective
>>>>> medications and appropriate foods, mature enough to deal with the
>>>>> social
>>>>> implications, such as access issues, and that they actually had a
>>>>> need, not
>>>>> just a want for a guide dog, due to a challenging travel area or
>>>>> complex and
>>>>> demanding schedule of activities and classes.  Please share your
>>>>> thoughts.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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