[blindkid] blindkid Digest, Vol 94, Issue 2
Trudy Pickrel
tlpickrel at hotmail.com
Fri Feb 3 00:29:54 UTC 2012
Laurie
It is more over a issue of equal access if they do not have for her then no one should take it.......... Our thought and prayers of strength are with you. Go get them Mom.
Trudy L Pickrel
President MD Parents Blind Children
Owner TLC by the Lake poodles
On Feb 2, 2012, at 1:10 PM, blindkid-request at nfbnet.org wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Gifted testing (Arielle Silverman)
> 2. Re: Gifted testing (Lynda Zwinger)
> 3. Re: Gifted testing (Dr. Denise M Robinson)
> 4. Re: Gifted testing (Penny Duffy)
> 5. Re: Gifted testing (Richard Holloway)
> 6. Re: Gifted testing (Gina Ouellette)
> 7. Re: Gifted testing (Richard Holloway)
> 8. Re: Gifted testing (Holly Baker Miller)
> 9. Re: Gifted testing (Carol Castellano)
> 10. Re: Gifted testing (Richard Holloway)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 11:03:46 -0700
> From: Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com>
> To: L <lburns24 at yahoo.com>, "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for
> parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Gifted testing
> Message-ID:
> <CALAYQJCDAcK_-r3zpXOJy78KXVPzNbkunwpkNRSW3Jg356KhHA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Hi Laurie,
> I wonder if you can take a look at the test questions first before
> deciding whether or not to sign the exemption? In my experience, often
> what a sighted teacher claims is "very visual" is still accessible to
> a blind student when transcribed into Braille. I think you should at
> least be able to look at the test before you decide. Even if some of
> the problems are impossible to transcribe into Braille, why not let
> her take the test anyway? Even if she doesn't qualify, you would still
> leave that door open for her to test again later when her Braille
> knowledge is improved and, ideally, when you can get the test in an
> accessible format. Also, would she be allowed to have the test read to
> her and taken orally or is that considered "altering" the test too
> much?
> Arielle
>
> On 2/1/12, L <lburns24 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> So my 5 year old is in a regular kindergarten class.? The SCOPE program
>> (gifted) has been coming into the classroom and working with the students
>> and hannah's VI teacher and aide have adapted all materials for her.? Well,
>> now they will be testing ALL kindergarten students for the program.? The
>> test is not allowed to be altered in any way and they have no version for
>> blind students/low vision.? I was told it is a very visual test.? The
>> principal has stated that Hannah is not to take this test at all and they
>> want me to sign an addendum to exempt her from this test.? This is not
>> necessarily an issue I really want to fight right now, because I don't think
>> Hannah will qualify at this time for gifted services.? BUT I feel that it is
>> completely unfair that they just want to exempt her from the test when all
>> the other students are taking it.? I also don't want to say okay and exempt
>> maybe this year and next year while she is still learning all her
>> braille, but what if in the future I feel like she should take it and they
>> say "well you always exempted her before..."? Any thoughts?? Thank you!
>> Laurie Wages (Hannah's mom)
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 11:10:25 -0700
> From: Lynda Zwinger <lyndaz918 at gmail.com>
> To: L <lburns24 at yahoo.com>, "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for
> parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Gifted testing
> Message-ID:
> <CABPRZbxNd5ZbHM6by1+2X57cVPABocHjwkkhkciFruhdKbHmtA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Hi Laurie,
>
>> From a "been there / wish I had done that" perspective, I'd say fight it
> now. It is a principle that you will be defending for her entire school
> career.
>
> fwiw,
>
> Lynda
>
> On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 10:51 AM, L <lburns24 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>> So my 5 year old is in a regular kindergarten class. The SCOPE program
>> (gifted) has been coming into the classroom and working with the students
>> and hannah's VI teacher and aide have adapted all materials for her. Well,
>> now they will be testing ALL kindergarten students for the program. The
>> test is not allowed to be altered in any way and they have no version for
>> blind students/low vision. I was told it is a very visual test. The
>> principal has stated that Hannah is not to take this test at all and they
>> want me to sign an addendum to exempt her from this test. This is not
>> necessarily an issue I really want to fight right now, because I don't
>> think Hannah will qualify at this time for gifted services. BUT I feel
>> that it is completely unfair that they just want to exempt her from the
>> test when all the other students are taking it. I also don't want to say
>> okay and exempt maybe this year and next year while she is still learning
>> all her
>> braille, but what if in the future I feel like she should take it and
>> they say "well you always exempted her before..." Any thoughts? Thank
>> you! Laurie Wages (Hannah's mom)
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/lyndaz918%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 10:14:25 -0800
> From: "Dr. Denise M Robinson" <deniserob at gmail.com>
> To: L <lburns24 at yahoo.com>, "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for
> parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Gifted testing
> Message-ID:
> <CAAxsd_6trN6OMYAAnpSwjZU1Nx75AorA6og4ujvZuKYp+57cAg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Don't let this happen Laurie---she needs the practice taking tests like
> this, and you never know---they need to adapt to her blindness...this has
> long term detrimental affects in more ways than can be put down here.
>
> Denise
>
> On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 9:51 AM, L <lburns24 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>> So my 5 year old is in a regular kindergarten class. The SCOPE program
>> (gifted) has been coming into the classroom and working with the students
>> and hannah's VI teacher and aide have adapted all materials for her. Well,
>> now they will be testing ALL kindergarten students for the program. The
>> test is not allowed to be altered in any way and they have no version for
>> blind students/low vision. I was told it is a very visual test. The
>> principal has stated that Hannah is not to take this test at all and they
>> want me to sign an addendum to exempt her from this test. This is not
>> necessarily an issue I really want to fight right now, because I don't
>> think Hannah will qualify at this time for gifted services. BUT I feel
>> that it is completely unfair that they just want to exempt her from the
>> test when all the other students are taking it. I also don't want to say
>> okay and exempt maybe this year and next year while she is still learning
>> all her
>> braille, but what if in the future I feel like she should take it and
>> they say "well you always exempted her before..." Any thoughts? Thank
>> you! Laurie Wages (Hannah's mom)
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/deniserob%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Denise
>
> Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.
> CEO, TechVision, LLC
> Virtual Instructor for blind/low vision
> 509-674-1853
>
> Website with hundreds of informational articles & lessons all done with
> keystrokes: www.yourtechvision.com
>
> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
> doing it." --Chinese Proverb
>
> Computers are incredibly fast, accurate, and stupid: humans are incredibly
> slow, inaccurate and brilliant; together they are powerful beyond
> imagination.
> --Albert Einstein
>
> It's kind of fun to do the impossible.
> --Walt Disney
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 13:40:02 -0500
> From: Penny Duffy <pennyduffy at gmail.com>
> To: L <lburns24 at yahoo.com>, "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for
> parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Gifted testing
> Message-ID:
> <CABb_=Qdt=HB4GR82en8s4RiYfoy__Q9zkV8pVBdEMj52LMyFTA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Honestly.. I have only been doing this for only a year. I would say
> 'fight'. Its about 'training' your school and team about what i important
> and what your daughter should get. We had an issue with homework not being
> brailled. I brought it up and they corrected the problem. Sometimes
> educators don't think and don't understand. Now in this case since they
> want you to sign a waver i would say they know what they are doing is
> wrong. I try to be a partner in my daughters education. I am very calm
> doing with our IEP team and if I have had issues I bring it up and
> thankfully they are resolved. I am believe in being really nice so when
> something serious like this happened they would know I am serious.
>
> It not about if your daughter is ready or not. If they are doing the whole
> class than the sighted children will have results from a test
> you wouldn't get and that is simply NOT fair. Maybe they are
> not knowledgeable.
>
> I would say go prepared and be prepared with which law they are breaking. I
> don't know but besides not following IDEA I am pretty sure they are
> breaking the ADA. Maybe someone more knowledge can tell you.
> -Penny
> On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 12:51 PM, L <lburns24 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>> So my 5 year old is in a regular kindergarten class. The SCOPE program
>> (gifted) has been coming into the classroom and working with the students
>> and hannah's VI teacher and aide have adapted all materials for her. Well,
>> now they will be testing ALL kindergarten students for the program. The
>> test is not allowed to be altered in any way and they have no version for
>> blind students/low vision. I was told it is a very visual test. The
>> principal has stated that Hannah is not to take this test at all and they
>> want me to sign an addendum to exempt her from this test. This is not
>> necessarily an issue I really want to fight right now, because I don't
>> think Hannah will qualify at this time for gifted services. BUT I feel
>> that it is completely unfair that they just want to exempt her from the
>> test when all the other students are taking it. I also don't want to say
>> okay and exempt maybe this year and next year while she is still learning
>> all her
>> braille, but what if in the future I feel like she should take it and
>> they say "well you always exempted her before..." Any thoughts? Thank
>> you! Laurie Wages (Hannah's mom)
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/pennyduffy%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
>
> --
> --Penny
> ----------
> A lucky mother to two amazing children - visionfora.blogspot.com
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 14:06:26 -0500
> From: Richard Holloway <rholloway at gopbc.org>
> To: L <lburns24 at yahoo.com>, "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, \(for
> parents of blind children\)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Gifted testing
> Message-ID: <8229B5F9-B026-4475-A92C-721784D2AEC1 at gopbc.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> First thought: I would not sign anything, not that you also would not have the right to rescind such a document later, but they are obliged to test your daughter as far as I am aware.
>
> Now here in Georgia, that is sooner than they normally test. First grade would be common and Kindergarten is by special request only, but if this is when they test all kids there, hold your ground.
>
> Certainly you do not need to GRANT them permission not to test, and in fact if they are not obligated, why in the world would they want to ask for an exemption? Sounds like they are trying to get you to agree that you won't do anything if they break their own policies.
>
> We have fought this battle already, and they simply told us (no request for our permission) that they would not be testing our daughter. We indicated they were mistaken and told them we expected them to test her. Again, this was in first grade.
>
> There is a long follow-up I will not post here, save to say that they claimed she did not qualify, but the people who had adapted the test for her to take said she did. It took about a year of fighting, but she is now in the gifted program.
>
> They are (as you suggest yourself) trying to set up a dangerous precedent. I would suggest that no matter if your child may qualify now or not, she should be tested like the other kids, and no matter what the school says, there are ADAPTED testing instruments available (and adapted applications of existing tests where visual questions, for example, are thrown out and the score is computed compensating for appropriate deleted questions.)
>
> I think exempting our kids from testing (even if we think they may not qualify) sends the wrong message to ALL involved. Our kids think they have no chance to qualify. Teachers think they can treat our kids differently. Other students think blind kids can't do things that they can do.
>
> I would absolutely tell them to find an adapted testing instrument. This is part of their job and your child deserves the same opportunities as her sighted peers.
>
> Part of the challenge here is probably that nothing has been set up for a process to adapt standardized testing as you are still fairly early in the process of sorting out your child's particular needs. Each IEP sort of builds off of the previous ones and over time, you get all the accommodations figured out, because they are probably sort of right about not being able to modify the testing right now. They can't modify it (or the process) unless there is a provision for this particular child in her own active IEP.
>
> If you really don't want to fight the fight this time around, at the very least, you need to make them aware that you expect better planning for future testing and tell them you want this addressed in the next IEP. If you've already had one for next year, call it again. You have that right.
>
> I know it is hard, but be strong and don't let any of them push you into decisions with which you disagree. You're the parent. This is YOUR call.
>
> Good Luck!
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 1, 2012, at 12:51 PM, L wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>> So my 5 year old is in a regular kindergarten class. The SCOPE program (gifted) has been coming into the classroom and working with the students and hannah's VI teacher and aide have adapted all materials for her. Well, now they will be testing ALL kindergarten students for the program. The test is not allowed to be altered in any way and they have no version for blind students/low vision. I was told it is a very visual test. The principal has stated that Hannah is not to take this test at all and they want me to sign an addendum to exempt her from this test. This is not necessarily an issue I really want to fight right now, because I don't think Hannah will qualify at this time for gifted services. BUT I feel that it is completely unfair that they just want to exempt her from the test when all the other students are taking it. I also don't want to say okay and exempt maybe this year and next year while she is still learning all her
>> braille, but what if in the future I feel like she should take it and they say "well you always exempted her before..." Any thoughts? Thank you! Laurie Wages (Hannah's mom)
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindkid:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/rholloway%40gopbc.org
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 19:12:58 +0000
> From: Gina Ouellette <gouellette at csb-cde.ca.gov>
> To: L <lburns24 at yahoo.com>, "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for
> parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Gifted testing
> Message-ID:
> <B56DBC7D46B59E4FA7A2F8730C575C76087FF621 at DCNMSG03.sssd.ca.gov>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hi Laurie,
>
> I am a school psychologist at a state school for the blind and not a parent of a blind child, so this is just my own two cents. I have to agree with everyone else... In my humble opinion the school needs to know from day one that you want your daughter to be treated like everyone else. I think that if you allow your daughter to be exempted based on her vision impairment alone it will send the message to the school that you're willing to bend when something is "too hard" to adapt.
>
> The fact is that the teachers know the students well by this point in the school year, and they probably have a good sense of which kids may be "gifted." Imagine the outrage if they got to pick and choose which kids got to take the test and which didn't. That would not be fair, and neither is disallowing your daughter to take it based on pre-conceived notions or the "hassle" of adapting the test.
>
> You can also talk with the school psychologist at the school about what he or she could do to help assess your daughter in a similar way to the way she would be assessed with the gifted test. He or she may also be able to help the TVI, principal, and/or head of the gifted program to figure out how to best adapt the test.
>
> The key is to do some more research and go in with a well-versed argument about why it is inappropriate to exempt her. You should also talk about the legality of it. As you know, your daughter is protected under the Americans with Disabilities Act (even more so than IDEA) and must have equal access. That is really the silver bullet--it is completely illegal for them to not accommodate her or give her access to something that her sighted peers have access to.
>
> Good luck. It's a sticky situation, but as someone else pointed out, you will be defending your daughter's right to access for many years to come.
>
> Best,
> Gina
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> This e-mail message (including attachments, if any) is intended for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, proprietary,?and confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copy of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender and erase this e-mail message immediately. Thank you for your cooperation.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of L
> Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 9:52 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List (forparentsofblindchildren)
> Subject: [blindkid] Gifted testing
>
> Hi all,
> So my 5 year old is in a regular kindergarten class.? The SCOPE program (gifted) has been coming into the classroom and working with the students and hannah's VI teacher and aide have adapted all materials for her.? Well, now they will be testing ALL kindergarten students for the program.? The test is not allowed to be altered in any way and they have no version for blind students/low vision.? I was told it is a very visual test.? The principal has stated that Hannah is not to take this test at all and they want me to sign an addendum to exempt her from this test.? This is not necessarily an issue I really want to fight right now, because I don't think Hannah will qualify at this time for gifted services.? BUT I feel that it is completely unfair that they just want to exempt her from the test when all the other students are taking it.? I also don't want to say okay and exempt maybe this year and next year while she is still learning all her braille, but what if in the future I feel like she should take it and they say "well you always exempted her before..."? Any thoughts?? Thank you!? Laurie Wages (Hannah's mom) _______________________________________________
> blindkid mailing list
> blindkid at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindkid:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/gouellette%40csb-cde.ca.gov
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 14:55:08 -0500
> From: Richard Holloway <rholloway at gopbc.org>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, \(for parents of blind children\)"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Gifted testing
> Message-ID: <A3003452-4E2D-4CEE-B857-1E41C28F5FF5 at gopbc.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> I think you are right on track as well Gina, only be careful when we start talking about legality with the school. If the wrong thing gets said they can abruptly stop cooperating and it can come to legal measures. That can become a huge hassle.
>
> I agree that it must be illegal, and I suspect that a legal battle would end in the child's favor, but far better to avoid those steps if the school can be made aware of possible accommodations they could use to solve this more informally and they will comply. Frankly, they may also think (no reflection on this particular child, Hannah) that a blind kid isn't going to be "gifted", so why bother? Well, the reasons are at least two-fold. This child may indeed be gifted (or may test as gifted in the future), but also the child needs to be treated like the rest of the kids. I think this is the first thing they need to hear, and maybe (hopefully!) the school will start to catch on....
>
> Our daughter is also the only blind child in a typically sighted, main stream student population. Fairly often, I think foolish things like this come as out of ignorance as much as (or maybe even more than) laziness on the school's part. It can even be fear. I have seen teachers who are clearly afraid, not of our daughter as such, but of not having any idea how to teach her, and not realizing that there are specialists (TVI's and O&M's) who are going to appear and offer assistance in dealing with all of this. (This was specifically stated one in a meeting at school. It was very surprising, and perhaps not the wisest choice on this teacher's part.)
>
> I think there is even one further level of the blindness fear in schools though-- people are afraid of becoming blind themselves and sometimes, you hit people in schools to whom that applies so much that they really have no idea how to confront any matter related to blindness. If you run across that, you may find people going to all sorts of measures to excuse our kids from things which the frightened adults are trying to avoid themselves. Does that apply in this case? Who knows, but maybe it is a thing to keep in mind when one is trying to determine what is in the mind of a squirming administrator opposite your ring-side seat at your next IEP?
>
> I think it was Dr. V here on the list who pointed out a while back that he goes out of his way to make the IEP feel as personal as possible. Bring a photo of your child and have it out to be seen in the meeting. We often tell personal anecdotes about Kendra in meetings. Get these people to WANT to help if possible. Only if and when that fails do you throw the legal card. (But absolutely, throw it if you must.)
>
>
> On Feb 1, 2012, at 2:12 PM, Gina Ouellette wrote:
>
>> Hi Laurie,
>>
>> I am a school psychologist at a state school for the blind and not a parent of a blind child, so this is just my own two cents. I have to agree with everyone else... In my humble opinion the school needs to know from day one that you want your daughter to be treated like everyone else. I think that if you allow your daughter to be exempted based on her vision impairment alone it will send the message to the school that you're willing to bend when something is "too hard" to adapt.
>>
>> The fact is that the teachers know the students well by this point in the school year, and they probably have a good sense of which kids may be "gifted." Imagine the outrage if they got to pick and choose which kids got to take the test and which didn't. That would not be fair, and neither is disallowing your daughter to take it based on pre-conceived notions or the "hassle" of adapting the test.
>>
>> You can also talk with the school psychologist at the school about what he or she could do to help assess your daughter in a similar way to the way she would be assessed with the gifted test. He or she may also be able to help the TVI, principal, and/or head of the gifted program to figure out how to best adapt the test.
>>
>> The key is to do some more research and go in with a well-versed argument about why it is inappropriate to exempt her. You should also talk about the legality of it. As you know, your daughter is protected under the Americans with Disabilities Act (even more so than IDEA) and must have equal access. That is really the silver bullet--it is completely illegal for them to not accommodate her or give her access to something that her sighted peers have access to.
>>
>> Good luck. It's a sticky situation, but as someone else pointed out, you will be defending your daughter's right to access for many years to come.
>>
>> Best,
>> Gina
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> This e-mail message (including attachments, if any) is intended for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, proprietary, and confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copy of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender and erase this e-mail message immediately. Thank you for your cooperation.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of L
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 9:52 AM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List (forparentsofblindchildren)
>> Subject: [blindkid] Gifted testing
>>
>> Hi all,
>> So my 5 year old is in a regular kindergarten class. The SCOPE program (gifted) has been coming into the classroom and working with the students and hannah's VI teacher and aide have adapted all materials for her. Well, now they will be testing ALL kindergarten students for the program. The test is not allowed to be altered in any way and they have no version for blind students/low vision. I was told it is a very visual test. The principal has stated that Hannah is not to take this test at all and they want me to sign an addendum to exempt her from this test. This is not necessarily an issue I really want to fight right now, because I don't think Hannah will qualify at this time for gifted services. BUT I feel that it is completely unfair that they just want to exempt her from the test when all the other students are taking it. I also don't want to say okay and exempt maybe this year and next year while she is still learning all her braille, but what if in the future I feel like she should take it and they say "well you always exempted her before..." Any thoughts? Thank you! Laurie Wages (Hannah's mom) _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 21:25:39 -0500
> From: Holly Baker Miller <hollym12 at gmail.com>
> To: L <lburns24 at yahoo.com>, "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for
> parents of blind children)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Gifted testing
> Message-ID:
> <CA+Xp9posFyGmX2=a0tkaFm+drmwkk9Nm6fcwJzcQApOpg6xFeA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> There have been great responses so far so I'll just add a +1 instead of
> rambling on.
>
> Something to keep in mind is there is a difference between policy and
> regulation. I'd probably ask to see (not be told, see) the regulation
> that says no accommodations are allowed for this particular test.
> Oh...there is no written regulation? It's just their policy? Great!
> Policies can be changed!
>
> This is a grown up problem, not a Hannah problem. They may not want to go
> to the trouble of finding an appropriate way to test her but it's their job
> to figure it out.
> It really is as simple as that. Of course it doesn't mean it will be
> simple to get them to see it that way but the root of it is that simple.
> I'm saying that as a parent who is in the midst of a court case against
> the school. I can't say much about it publicly but yeah, it's not fun.
> It's certainly not something to rush into but it's there if all other
> options fail. I do tell parents never ever threaten legal action.
> Threatening never ever helps. If all other options have been exhausted
> then file the papers but don't put it out there it until you have all the
> pieces in place to act on it.
>
> Holly
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 12:51 PM, L <lburns24 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>> So my 5 year old is in a regular kindergarten class. The SCOPE program
>> (gifted) has been coming into the classroom and working with the students
>> and hannah's VI teacher and aide have adapted all materials for her. Well,
>> now they will be testing ALL kindergarten students for the program. The
>> test is not allowed to be altered in any way and they have no version for
>> blind students/low vision. I was told it is a very visual test. The
>> principal has stated that Hannah is not to take this test at all and they
>> want me to sign an addendum to exempt her from this test. This is not
>> necessarily an issue I really want to fight right now, because I don't
>> think Hannah will qualify at this time for gifted services. BUT I feel
>> that it is completely unfair that they just want to exempt her from the
>> test when all the other students are taking it. I also don't want to say
>> okay and exempt maybe this year and next year while she is still learning
>> all her
>> braille, but what if in the future I feel like she should take it and
>> they say "well you always exempted her before..." Any thoughts? Thank
>> you! Laurie Wages (Hannah's mom)
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindkid:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/hollym12%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2012 08:49:17 -0500
> From: Carol Castellano <carol_castellano at verizon.net>
> To: L <lburns24 at yahoo.com>, "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, \(for
> parents of blind children\)" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Gifted testing
> Message-ID: <882045.13692.qm at smtp102.vzn.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
> If you look at this issue from an ADA point of view, the statement,
> "The test is not allowed to be altered in any way" would be a
> problem. ADA does indeed guarantee equal access. Ideally, in ADA
> situations, there would be a good faith discussion of possible
> remedies, with each party putting forth their questions and ideas
> until a feasible accommodation solution is reached. The antidote to
> an ADA violation is a civil rights complaint.
>
> In my experience, schools are not used to thinking in terms of ADA,
> but I have found it effective for someone (an advocate, perhaps) to
> educate the school on this and come from the position of "of course
> you wouldn't want to be out of compliance with the Americans with
> Disabilities Act" and "gee, the parent would really hate to have to
> file a civil rights complaint." The fact is they really WON'T want
> to be out of compliance. They simply may not have had experience in
> thinking--and finding solutions--in this way.
>
> That all said, the next issue for us parents is to make sure that
> when our kids ARE included in testing that the version given does not
> unfairly penalize our kids for not being able to see. Unfortunately
> this happens all the time. In my experience, this is inadvertent and
> not purposeful, and so is another area where we need to educate those
> in the school system. Examples--they leave all questions in and fail
> the child for not answering the ones he/she can't see. Or they
> eliminate certain questions, and change the point scaling of the
> answers. So if the test originally had 10 questions and each
> question was worth 10 points, and they eliminate 2 questions, then
> the remaining questions are worth 12.5 points each. This means that
> if our kids get one wrong on the test, they get a lower score than
> other kids who got the same one question wrong.
>
> We sure need to educate those in the school and remain alert.
>
> Carol
>
> Carol Castellano
> President, Parents of Blind Children-NJ
> Director of Programs
> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
> 973-377-0976
> carol_castellano at verizon.net
> www.blindchildren.org
> www.nopbc.org
>
>
>
>
>
> At 12:51 PM 2/1/2012, you wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> So my 5 year old is in a regular kindergarten class. The SCOPE
>> program (gifted) has been coming into the classroom and working with
>> the students and hannah's VI teacher and aide have adapted all
>> materials for her. Well, now they will be testing ALL kindergarten
>> students for the program. The test is not allowed to be altered in
>> any way and they have no version for blind students/low vision. I
>> was told it is a very visual test. The principal has stated that
>> Hannah is not to take this test at all and they want me to sign an
>> addendum to exempt her from this test. This is not necessarily an
>> issue I really want to fight right now, because I don't think Hannah
>> will qualify at this time for gifted services. BUT I feel that it
>> is completely unfair that they just want to exempt her from the test
>> when all the other students are taking it. I also don't want to say
>> okay and exempt maybe this year and next year while she is still
>> learning all her
>> braille, but what if in the future I feel like she should take it
>> and they say "well you always exempted her before..." Any
>> thoughts? Thank you! Laurie Wages (Hannah's mom)
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindkid mailing list
>> blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> for blindkid:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/blindchildren%40verizon.net
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 12:45:16 -0500
> From: Richard Holloway <rholloway at gopbc.org>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, \(for parents of blind children\)"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Gifted testing
> Message-ID: <65584D16-1BA7-4BD4-B35A-C3F1525F927E at gopbc.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Where it gets really complicated is that generally they need a reference set of scores to compare our kids' non-standard, so-called "standardized" tests to, because they go by percentile ranking. My wife, the professional statistician, will cringe at my awful explanation, but they need to compare our kids to ranking of other kids in order to say NOT that a student got 75% correct, but to determine that 75% correct ranked the child to the top 10% of kids (90th percentile). You cannot say how our kids did against the standard test (and other children in the population) if the test has been modified or adapted in any way because the other kids didn't TAKE the same test, so there are simply no rankings available, and most of these gifted programs consider rankings not scores values as such.
>
> As to the official rules, don't believe what you are told and don't even believe what is in writing. It may not be accurate, and it may not really be official. What you actually need is what the school CLAIMS (in writing) to compare with what they have on file, and if the item in writing is on a WEB SITE, you need to PRINT IT and retain the site address info on the page from your computer, so they cannot change the content later (easily done on their end). (There are also ways to retrieve old copies of the site, but they are not fool-proof.)
>
> In our state, I learned that the OFFICIAL school rules are kept on file with the Secretary of State's office and are available on line with all of the Georgia Laws. Turns out that what was posted on the county web site was NOT what was on file, and the policy to change any rules (also filed with the Secretary of State) was not followed to make any changes, if they really intended to change the rules at all. (It may have been the SoS's policy for change, I cannot remember.) Should this turn into a legal battle, there is not much chance a county's web site will trump the Secretary of State's official records; effectively the law of your state. Then, after all of that is where I believe the ADA, and IDEA would come into play (if need be) though I am certainly no lawyer.
>
> In our case, the argument never got into compliance with ADA issues. They told us they had complied with everything (and I think they believed it). Yes, they had tested in a reasonable way, but they they were claiming our daughter did not qualify, when in fact they were basing this on methods not in compliance with their own testing standards, per the Secretary of State's records.
>
> Our key issue where they were ranking scores by age, not grade level. Our daughter missed the grade/age cut off by 11 days, so many, if not most of the kids she was being compared to were kids in second grade (she was in first). That knocked her percentile ranking from what should have been something like 98th down to 85th (or some similar numbers). The school said they only ranked by age, period. What they officially had on file said differently. There were actually numerous conflicts between what was claimed and what was on record.
>
> The proper testing process is to adapt the test, give it to a large population of blind students, compare scores and determine percentile rankings of numeric scores, but they use what I assume is millions of kids scores to come up with these comparative values for sighted populations. That isn't going to ever be possible with blind kids-- there simply are not enough of them to get a huge sampling. Also, test revisions will have the same problem every time-- how would they update the norms?
>
> Some adapted tests have actually been setup so that they do have "norms" (I hope that is the right term). I suspect they may be less accurate than the main versions of tests, but like Carol points out, some sort of reasonable comprimise has to be found. The standard 3rd grade test (in our county in Georgia) is available adapted. The 1st grade test was not, so they had to get an alternative test. At first they thought they would have to fly someone across the country to be trained to administer the test. That turned out not to be the case, but it was still a big complicated process. Yes, that is a lot of "fuss" to test one child, but wait...
>
> I mention this because I felt badly at first over all the hassle, then I stopped myself and said, "hey, Kendra deserves the same chance as the rest of the kids to get into the program, and they have to test ALL the kids, so even if she should not qualify, she has the right to the same testing experience", which is in itself beneficial. More than that, chances are (as in our county) your school system may have skipped testing numerous blind children over the years, and if they skip YOUR child, they will have an easier time skipping the next ones too. Somewhere the cycle needs to be broken.
>
> I think back to discussions with Joe Cutter of a kid and a sliding board. Line up all the kids. Kids who may have watched other kids slide down sliding boards for months or years to begin with, but assume they have never tried it (for this discussion). Now one at a time, kids go down the slide. Most if the kids watch 2 or 5 or 10 kids ahead of them slide down the board and are mentally practicing the event.
>
> The blind child has no idea (apart from maybe an overheard description) of the sliding board and how it works and what to do. That is why the blind child needs hands-on exploration of the slide ahead of time. That isn't giving the child an unfair advantage, it is just heading slightly towards evening the playing field. Our kids schools need to grasp this basic concept and apply it EVERYWHERE for our children.
>
> Now back to the testing. Virtually all kids will be tested throughout their lives, and many of the tests will be standardized ones. If they take them once a year, by third grade, they'd have had a chance to take them.. well... I suppose 3rd Grade would be their 3rd or 4th chance to take them? The specific number is not the point-- Other kids will have taken the tests in maybe K, plus first grade, maybe second, etc., but the blind child who was "excused" has never taken one. Now it becomes time for her to start. The other kids, like watching children slide before them have an idea of the process and what to expect. (Not the best analogy because the kids have actually "been down the slide", so to speak now. But the blind child has neither watched the testing process OR been tested. Certainly not ideal. )
>
> At this point, the blind child is going to be more distracted and confused by the testing process (with it being new to her), and she may perform less well. This sort of becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy in that someone said not to test a child because it was "not necessary", anticipating lower scores, and ultimately, when testing is needed, scores are actually made artificially low by having avoided previous testing. Maybe the schools think this should wait until High School. Can you imagine? Or maybe skip all of this and let our kids take their first standardized test when they want to get into college and they are taking an SAT. Waiting is just not good.
>
> Another thing happens with Kendra and testing, and I have no idea how common this is... Often, various testing for her has to be done separately because she is taking different tests, or versions of tests, or she needs extended time, etc. Certainly anything needing to be read to a student would be a great distraction to other kids taking a similar test. So where do they test her? Somewhere that there aren't a lot of people around (as one might expect) but often that means a particular empty room with a giant fan circulating air. When all one can do is listen, some sounds can become a major distraction, like that fan.
>
> When Kendra was younger we had sound distraction issues at "nap time" (probably age three?). They wanted to play quiet music to soothe the kids. Kendra would analyze the music and discus it aloud. Hmm. French Horn. There's an Oboe. That one is in G-Major. (I'm not kidding.) It would be like me trying to rest with the Discovery Channel on full blast.
>
> A blind adult and friend explained to me that for him, certain sounds can be a distraction much like a silent beach ball floating into a room where sighted people are. We often tell sighted kids (well, all kids) to ignore certain things, but what is the chance sighted kids would manage to "just ignore" something as bizarre as a beach ball flying over their desks in class?!! Try to be certain that there are no "beach balls" floating into situations, especially where important testing is involved.
>
> I know I probably said too much (sorry for the long post yet again) and it is a lot to digest, but this is an important topic for us all, and we all have to work our way into these things one step at a time. With any situation that sets our kids apart, we have to wonder if THIS is not the time to adapt and treat the child in the most similar way possible, WHEN WILL IT BE?
>
> Apart from the convenience of (and potential cost savings for) the school, what would be the advantage for anyone? This is not about what is convenient for the schools. If that were the case, we should all keep our kids at home and not "hassle" the schools at all with things like braille and cane travel. Same thing for a lot of special needs kids. Wheel chairs and walkers can get in the way in the halls, you know? Even a white cane can pose a trip hazard, so leave those at home. You get the idea.... Surely none of us here thinks that way (those who home school are surely doing it for their children's benefit, not as a favor to the schools). We're all "paying customers" here, so to speak. Our kids are every bit as important as any others in any school. The schools need to figure that out, and we can help them do so, by holding our ground.
>
> I'll get off my soap box now.
>
> Oh, and Carol, I agree 100%, if someone ELSE can casually mention, "golly, you would not want to be out of compliance" (with the ADA, etc.) that is ideal. Failing that, if we have to mention it ourselves, I think the presentation is really important, Just try to avoid the aggressive "you will do this or I will sue the county" method, however tempting that may be. No need to have them on the phone with the county legal department instead of trying to work with you to actually solve the problem.
>
> Richard
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 2, 2012, at 8:49 AM, Carol Castellano wrote:
>
>> If you look at this issue from an ADA point of view, the statement, "The test is not allowed to be altered in any way" would be a problem. ADA does indeed guarantee equal access. Ideally, in ADA situations, there would be a good faith discussion of possible remedies, with each party putting forth their questions and ideas until a feasible accommodation solution is reached. The antidote to an ADA violation is a civil rights complaint.
>>
>> In my experience, schools are not used to thinking in terms of ADA, but I have found it effective for someone (an advocate, perhaps) to educate the school on this and come from the position of "of course you wouldn't want to be out of compliance with the Americans with Disabilities Act" and "gee, the parent would really hate to have to file a civil rights complaint." The fact is they really WON'T want to be out of compliance. They simply may not have had experience in thinking--and finding solutions--in this way.
>>
>> That all said, the next issue for us parents is to make sure that when our kids ARE included in testing that the version given does not unfairly penalize our kids for not being able to see. Unfortunately this happens all the time. In my experience, this is inadvertent and not purposeful, and so is another area where we need to educate those in the school system. Examples--they leave all questions in and fail the child for not answering the ones he/she can't see. Or they eliminate certain questions, and change the point scaling of the answers. So if the test originally had 10 questions and each question was worth 10 points, and they eliminate 2 questions, then the remaining questions are worth 12.5 points each. This means that if our kids get one wrong on the test, they get a lower score than other kids who got the same one question wrong.
>>
>> We sure need to educate those in the school and remain alert.
>>
>> Carol
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
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