[blindkid] Question: Braille Displays or Paper Braille for Increased Reading Speed?

Wed Jul 17 18:43:44 UTC 2013

When I was at the Braille Summit during the tech panel (all of these were
recorded and are available) a rep from a company spoke about device they
are working on for computerized  accessments that includes refreshable
braille and above it an area for electronic tactile graphics. I don't
remember all the details. It sounded pretty cool. I know its still being
devloped but they has working protypes I think already.
On Jul 17, 2013 1:55 PM, "Darcirae Hooks" <draehooks at yahoo.com> wrote:

> I was just thinking, that Caiden still has to pass National and state
> exams to demonstrate learning. Many of those tests have graphs and
> diagrams. So although he may not feel they benefit his learning bc he can
> pick the details out of text, he still has to master the same skills his
> peers are measured by.
> So it may not be beneficial to him but the national standards don't adapt
> for VI kids.
>
> Darci
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jul 17, 2013, at 12:57, Richard Holloway <rholloway at gopbc.org> wrote:
>
> > I just asked my 10-year-old daughter-- she says tactile diagrams aren't
>  very useful to her, but I have seen some of the diagrams they produce for
> her at school. They are crude, sloppy things most of the time. I have made
> some better diagrams for her when producing a sort of "twin vision" charts
> for presentations of hers-- things she will show to the class, so she needs
> to be able to identify what the rest of the kids will observe visually. She
> says mine are a bit better than from school, but the reason is I spend a
> LOT of time making them-- too much time to be reasonable for casual
> graphics from day-to-day.
> >
> > Again, I don't have a great solution to offer. Kendra does underscore
> that she wants the same charts and graphics available as the rest of the
> kids have though, and I agree. So again, a notetaker textbook solution
> would need some sort of embossed "tactile addendum" to accomplish that on
> any level.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Jul 16, 2013, at 11:43 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote:
> >
> >> Agreed, if page numbers are missing and the instruction is to read
> >> specific pages or paragraphs that are numbered, this is a problem.
> >> although it can also be a problem with hard-copy Braille books if the
> >> page numbers given are print page numbers and such numbers aren't
> >> contained in the Braille book.
> >> I also agree about open-book quizzes, but maintain that for homework
> >> assignments and other "practice" work prior to a test, reading the
> >> whole chapter is, in my experience, a more effective learning method
> >> than merely skimming. Full reading takes a little more time on the
> >> front end, but requires less studying and re-reading later. I advise
> >> sighted students against skimming and highlighting in favor of fully
> >> reading all the content presented to them. In fact, I credit my
> >> inability to skim as a contributing factor to my academic success.
> >> Regarding tactile diagrams, this may be a controversial statement, but
> >> I personally have found almost all tactile diagrams to be either
> >> superfluous or useless, and would have preferred they be either
> >> omitted entirely or verbally described. It is very difficult to get
> >> the required degree of detail into a tactile diagram that you can get
> >> into a print one. Again this is just my opinion, and I am genuinely
> >> interested to know if other blind people find tactile diagrams to be
> >> worth the trouble of making them. It could also be different for folks
> >> who have had useful sight at one point in their lives (I never did). I
> >> also think there are a few times when tactile diagrams are beneficial,
> >> for example when learning basic algebraic concepts such as slopes and
> >> parabolas. But for many subjects spatial knowledge just isn't very
> >> important for understanding the higher-order concepts. As a biology
> >> major, I found that knowing what a cell looks like was important for
> >> only a tiny fraction of the curriculum, and it was much more critical
> >> for me to understand the processes involved in photosynthesis, for
> >> example. Diagrams are highly valued by sighted learners because they
> >> help sighted learners organize information, but I'm not convinced they
> >> hold the same benefits for blind learners (particularly
> >> congenitally-blind ones, who from the start are used to organizing
> >> information nonvisually). Thoughts?
> >> Arielle
> >>
> >> On 7/16/13, Richard Holloway <rholloway at gopbc.org> wrote:
> >>> I maintain that Kendra is faster at reading books on her braillenote
> than
> >>> paper (though I would like to time this soon if she will cooperate
> just to
> >>> confirm this with actual data), but it should be said that the
> Braillenote
> >>> has proven somewhat disastrous with certain textbooks which have been
> >>> supplied electronically and without page numbers of any kind.
> >>>
> >>> When an assignment comes home that says to "read pages 87-93" and
> there are
> >>> no page numbers chapter references, or content hints, the "find
> command" is
> >>> entirely useless.
> >>>
> >>> Then there are the issues about having no tactile diagrams or
> illustrations
> >>> on a note taker. Maybe with a full page Braille display one day that
> won't
> >>> be an issue, but a simple text dump of a print textbook is
> insufficient to
> >>> produce Braille diagrams, so much of the problem is probably as much
> related
> >>> to the porting process from print to Braille as it is to any display
> >>> limitations.
> >>>
> >>> We could probably quickly produce another lengthy thread about Braille
> text
> >>> books. In our experience, certainly paper Braille texts work best,
> though
> >>> ideally we would have paper Braille and electronic.
> >>>
> >>> Our biggest Braille text issues last year were probably the
> no-page-number
> >>> issue for e-Braille-only books, and comments in paper Braille texts
> like
> >>> "diagram omitted". Diagram of what? (And why could such diagrams not be
> >>> produced as tactile pieces, if not well described in Braille?)
> >>>
> >>> The problem of open-book quizzes was also a frustrating one for us. It
> seems
> >>> to us that reading a lengthy Braille passage (perhaps a whole chapter)
> for
> >>> answers is somewhat different than glancing visually for a headline to
> zero
> >>> in on the right section of a textbook so you can read just the right
> >>> paragraphs. It is doable, but surely a different (and slower) testing
> >>> process.
> >>>
> >>> Then there is the web-based text solution that has become a new trend
> here--
> >>> the county supplies some texts on-line only and the site is entirely
> >>> inaccessible without some sighted assistance. JAWS cannot navigate
> these
> >>> books, and the text, though self-reading (it reads aloud) can't be
> started
> >>> reasonably by a blind user, and stops at random locations (and needs
> another
> >>> mouse click to restart, generally mid-paragraph, in a location that,
> so far,
> >>> is generally impossible to find with a screen reader).
> >>>
> >>> I'm not clear why the county would license tens of thousands of
> electronic
> >>> copies of various textbooks from a vendor supplying inaccessible
> products. I
> >>> doubt the texts are even legal to sell in the configuration supplied.
> >>>
> >>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>
> >>> On Jul 16, 2013, at 8:34 PM, Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hi Sally,
> >>>>
> >>>> It surprises me that your son couldn't efficiently navigate back to
> >>>> specific parts of the text on the BrailleNote. Although there is the
> >>>> disadvantage of not being able to locate section headings, the
> >>>> BrailleNote does have the find command, which allows one to search for
> >>>> a specific word or phrase anywhere in the text. Did he try using the
> >>>> Find command (space + F)? It may also be possible to replace section
> >>>> headings with double paragraph breaks.
> >>>> I agree with you, though, that hard-copy Braille allows us to see how
> >>>> documents are formatted.
> >>>>
> >>>> Arielle
> >>>>
> >>>> On 7/16/13, Sarah Thomas <seacknit at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> Although I think a braille display could be a faster way to absorb
> >>>>> braille
> >>>>> if one is an efficient user, I worry about the thought that the
> display
> >>>>> could be thought of as a replacement for paper braille.  One
> important
> >>>>> difference in my mind, is learning how a page is formatted.  Also,
> >>>>> formatting is a means of conveying information.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> When the school district my son attended learned that print could be
> >>>>> converted to braille with a .doc file on the braillenote, they tried
> to
> >>>>> give
> >>>>> him 40 (print) page reading assignments with questions at the end
> that
> >>>>> referred to specific paragraphs in the text.  It was not possible
> for him
> >>>>> to
> >>>>> navigate the assignment on the braillenote with efficiency.  As
> >>>>> unfortunate
> >>>>> as it is, there is not one solution to the braille reading issue.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sally Thomas
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Jul 17, 2013, at 3:29 AM, Allison Hilliker <AllisonH at benetech.org
> >
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hi All,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I had a question that came to my mind due in part to the fascinating
> >>>>>> Braille discussion we've had on this list lately. Do you know if
> >>>>>> Braille
> >>>>>> format has any impact on Braille reading speeds and fluency? In
> other
> >>>>>> words, is one more likely to increase their reading speed by using
> >>>>>> hardcopy Braille as opposed to a Braille display? Or does Braille
> >>>>>> reading
> >>>>>> speed simply increase with practice regardless of how one gets their
> >>>>>> Braille? Are your kids/students increasing reading speeds through
> their
> >>>>>> displays or do they still use hardcopy a lot when learning?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I ask because an NFB member who is also a Braille instructor once
> told
> >>>>>> me
> >>>>>> that It is harder to increase reading speed using a Braille display
> >>>>>> than
> >>>>>> it is using paper Braille. Does anyone know if this is true?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Allison
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
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> >>>>>
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