[blindkid] Question: Braille Displays or Paper Braille for Increased Reading Speed?

Wed Jul 17 23:40:58 UTC 2013

There's also the practical difficulties of translating Braille output
into print. I know when I was in grade school writing everything in
paper Braille, my parents spent a lot of time transcribing everything
into print for my teachers that I wrote down in Braille. They didn't
know Braille so I had to read it to them. Whatever my parents didn't
do was transcribed by my TVI. My mom was a stay-at-home parent and she
had the time, but I know for many families the transcribing time just
isn't there, and having the TVI do it takes away from instruction
time. Once I started using Braille notetakers for homework and tests,
in middle and high school, I could complete, print and turn in
assignments without any sighted assistance.

Arielle

On 7/17/13, Penny Duffy <pennyduffy at gmail.com> wrote:
> When I was at the Braille Summit during the tech panel (all of these were
> recorded and are available) a rep from a company spoke about device they
> are working on for computerized  accessments that includes refreshable
> braille and above it an area for electronic tactile graphics. I don't
> remember all the details. It sounded pretty cool. I know its still being
> devloped but they has working protypes I think already.
> On Jul 17, 2013 1:55 PM, "Darcirae Hooks" <draehooks at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I was just thinking, that Caiden still has to pass National and state
>> exams to demonstrate learning. Many of those tests have graphs and
>> diagrams. So although he may not feel they benefit his learning bc he can
>> pick the details out of text, he still has to master the same skills his
>> peers are measured by.
>> So it may not be beneficial to him but the national standards don't adapt
>> for VI kids.
>>
>> Darci
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Jul 17, 2013, at 12:57, Richard Holloway <rholloway at gopbc.org> wrote:
>>
>> > I just asked my 10-year-old daughter-- she says tactile diagrams aren't
>>  very useful to her, but I have seen some of the diagrams they produce
>> for
>> her at school. They are crude, sloppy things most of the time. I have
>> made
>> some better diagrams for her when producing a sort of "twin vision"
>> charts
>> for presentations of hers-- things she will show to the class, so she
>> needs
>> to be able to identify what the rest of the kids will observe visually.
>> She
>> says mine are a bit better than from school, but the reason is I spend a
>> LOT of time making them-- too much time to be reasonable for casual
>> graphics from day-to-day.
>> >
>> > Again, I don't have a great solution to offer. Kendra does underscore
>> that she wants the same charts and graphics available as the rest of the
>> kids have though, and I agree. So again, a notetaker textbook solution
>> would need some sort of embossed "tactile addendum" to accomplish that on
>> any level.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Jul 16, 2013, at 11:43 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote:
>> >
>> >> Agreed, if page numbers are missing and the instruction is to read
>> >> specific pages or paragraphs that are numbered, this is a problem.
>> >> although it can also be a problem with hard-copy Braille books if the
>> >> page numbers given are print page numbers and such numbers aren't
>> >> contained in the Braille book.
>> >> I also agree about open-book quizzes, but maintain that for homework
>> >> assignments and other "practice" work prior to a test, reading the
>> >> whole chapter is, in my experience, a more effective learning method
>> >> than merely skimming. Full reading takes a little more time on the
>> >> front end, but requires less studying and re-reading later. I advise
>> >> sighted students against skimming and highlighting in favor of fully
>> >> reading all the content presented to them. In fact, I credit my
>> >> inability to skim as a contributing factor to my academic success.
>> >> Regarding tactile diagrams, this may be a controversial statement, but
>> >> I personally have found almost all tactile diagrams to be either
>> >> superfluous or useless, and would have preferred they be either
>> >> omitted entirely or verbally described. It is very difficult to get
>> >> the required degree of detail into a tactile diagram that you can get
>> >> into a print one. Again this is just my opinion, and I am genuinely
>> >> interested to know if other blind people find tactile diagrams to be
>> >> worth the trouble of making them. It could also be different for folks
>> >> who have had useful sight at one point in their lives (I never did). I
>> >> also think there are a few times when tactile diagrams are beneficial,
>> >> for example when learning basic algebraic concepts such as slopes and
>> >> parabolas. But for many subjects spatial knowledge just isn't very
>> >> important for understanding the higher-order concepts. As a biology
>> >> major, I found that knowing what a cell looks like was important for
>> >> only a tiny fraction of the curriculum, and it was much more critical
>> >> for me to understand the processes involved in photosynthesis, for
>> >> example. Diagrams are highly valued by sighted learners because they
>> >> help sighted learners organize information, but I'm not convinced they
>> >> hold the same benefits for blind learners (particularly
>> >> congenitally-blind ones, who from the start are used to organizing
>> >> information nonvisually). Thoughts?
>> >> Arielle
>> >>
>> >> On 7/16/13, Richard Holloway <rholloway at gopbc.org> wrote:
>> >>> I maintain that Kendra is faster at reading books on her braillenote
>> than
>> >>> paper (though I would like to time this soon if she will cooperate
>> just to
>> >>> confirm this with actual data), but it should be said that the
>> Braillenote
>> >>> has proven somewhat disastrous with certain textbooks which have been
>> >>> supplied electronically and without page numbers of any kind.
>> >>>
>> >>> When an assignment comes home that says to "read pages 87-93" and
>> there are
>> >>> no page numbers chapter references, or content hints, the "find
>> command" is
>> >>> entirely useless.
>> >>>
>> >>> Then there are the issues about having no tactile diagrams or
>> illustrations
>> >>> on a note taker. Maybe with a full page Braille display one day that
>> won't
>> >>> be an issue, but a simple text dump of a print textbook is
>> insufficient to
>> >>> produce Braille diagrams, so much of the problem is probably as much
>> related
>> >>> to the porting process from print to Braille as it is to any display
>> >>> limitations.
>> >>>
>> >>> We could probably quickly produce another lengthy thread about
>> >>> Braille
>> text
>> >>> books. In our experience, certainly paper Braille texts work best,
>> though
>> >>> ideally we would have paper Braille and electronic.
>> >>>
>> >>> Our biggest Braille text issues last year were probably the
>> no-page-number
>> >>> issue for e-Braille-only books, and comments in paper Braille texts
>> like
>> >>> "diagram omitted". Diagram of what? (And why could such diagrams not
>> >>> be
>> >>> produced as tactile pieces, if not well described in Braille?)
>> >>>
>> >>> The problem of open-book quizzes was also a frustrating one for us.
>> >>> It
>> seems
>> >>> to us that reading a lengthy Braille passage (perhaps a whole
>> >>> chapter)
>> for
>> >>> answers is somewhat different than glancing visually for a headline
>> >>> to
>> zero
>> >>> in on the right section of a textbook so you can read just the right
>> >>> paragraphs. It is doable, but surely a different (and slower) testing
>> >>> process.
>> >>>
>> >>> Then there is the web-based text solution that has become a new trend
>> here--
>> >>> the county supplies some texts on-line only and the site is entirely
>> >>> inaccessible without some sighted assistance. JAWS cannot navigate
>> these
>> >>> books, and the text, though self-reading (it reads aloud) can't be
>> started
>> >>> reasonably by a blind user, and stops at random locations (and needs
>> another
>> >>> mouse click to restart, generally mid-paragraph, in a location that,
>> so far,
>> >>> is generally impossible to find with a screen reader).
>> >>>
>> >>> I'm not clear why the county would license tens of thousands of
>> electronic
>> >>> copies of various textbooks from a vendor supplying inaccessible
>> products. I
>> >>> doubt the texts are even legal to sell in the configuration supplied.
>> >>>
>> >>> Sent from my iPhone
>> >>>
>> >>> On Jul 16, 2013, at 8:34 PM, Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> Hi Sally,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> It surprises me that your son couldn't efficiently navigate back to
>> >>>> specific parts of the text on the BrailleNote. Although there is the
>> >>>> disadvantage of not being able to locate section headings, the
>> >>>> BrailleNote does have the find command, which allows one to search
>> >>>> for
>> >>>> a specific word or phrase anywhere in the text. Did he try using the
>> >>>> Find command (space + F)? It may also be possible to replace section
>> >>>> headings with double paragraph breaks.
>> >>>> I agree with you, though, that hard-copy Braille allows us to see
>> >>>> how
>> >>>> documents are formatted.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Arielle
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On 7/16/13, Sarah Thomas <seacknit at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>> Although I think a braille display could be a faster way to absorb
>> >>>>> braille
>> >>>>> if one is an efficient user, I worry about the thought that the
>> display
>> >>>>> could be thought of as a replacement for paper braille.  One
>> important
>> >>>>> difference in my mind, is learning how a page is formatted.  Also,
>> >>>>> formatting is a means of conveying information.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> When the school district my son attended learned that print could
>> >>>>> be
>> >>>>> converted to braille with a .doc file on the braillenote, they
>> >>>>> tried
>> to
>> >>>>> give
>> >>>>> him 40 (print) page reading assignments with questions at the end
>> that
>> >>>>> referred to specific paragraphs in the text.  It was not possible
>> for him
>> >>>>> to
>> >>>>> navigate the assignment on the braillenote with efficiency.  As
>> >>>>> unfortunate
>> >>>>> as it is, there is not one solution to the braille reading issue.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Sally Thomas
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On Jul 17, 2013, at 3:29 AM, Allison Hilliker
>> >>>>> <AllisonH at benetech.org
>> >
>> >>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Hi All,
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I had a question that came to my mind due in part to the
>> >>>>>> fascinating
>> >>>>>> Braille discussion we've had on this list lately. Do you know if
>> >>>>>> Braille
>> >>>>>> format has any impact on Braille reading speeds and fluency? In
>> other
>> >>>>>> words, is one more likely to increase their reading speed by using
>> >>>>>> hardcopy Braille as opposed to a Braille display? Or does Braille
>> >>>>>> reading
>> >>>>>> speed simply increase with practice regardless of how one gets
>> >>>>>> their
>> >>>>>> Braille? Are your kids/students increasing reading speeds through
>> their
>> >>>>>> displays or do they still use hardcopy a lot when learning?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I ask because an NFB member who is also a Braille instructor once
>> told
>> >>>>>> me
>> >>>>>> that It is harder to increase reading speed using a Braille
>> >>>>>> display
>> >>>>>> than
>> >>>>>> it is using paper Braille. Does anyone know if this is true?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Thanks,
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Allison
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
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