[blindlaw] Educating Law Enforcement
ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
Wed Mar 31 23:38:26 UTC 2010
When I lived in Michigan years ago a question on the written driving test
asked what a motorist should do when they saw a blind person with a white
cane. I don't know if it is still on the tests there as I have not lived
there since the mid-80's.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce E. Naccari" <bnaccari at cox.net>
To: <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Cc: <blindlaw-request at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 1:44 PM
Subject: [blindlaw] Educating Law Enforcement
> On the topic of how one can best proceed to get enforcement of the rights
> of guide dog users and the White Cane laws: Many municipalities and
> states have Human rights Commissions or Human Relations Commissions with
> rather broad powers to enforce state or local antidiscrimination laws and
> to assess and then seek to achieve a conciliation of grievances involving
> discrimination complaints or complaints of poor relations between or among
> groups in the population. If your locality or state has such an agency,
> anyone with a grievance involving police failure or business or public
> accommodation operators’ failures to enforce and/or comply with the White
> Cane laws and laws protecting the right to use service animals like guide
> dogs should in my opinion consider filing a complaint there. Because these
> agencies usually are charged with a duty to try to achieve an amicable
> conciliation of the complaint before a hearing can be held, their
> procedures are useful for achieving results in cases of deprivation of
> rights with no or low special damages in dollars and where litigation
> would be lengthy and a judge with the discretion to do so might not grant
> adequate attorney’s fees. While I served first as Legal Counsel to the
> New Orleans Commission and then later as a commissioner we successfully
> conciliated several complaints against restaurants, bars, taxi companies,
> etc., involving the exclusion of guide dogs and discrimination against
> blind customers. In my opinion getting such a commission to become your
> advocate with the local police will likely prove to be more fruitful than
> filing Internal Affairs Division/public Integrity Division complaints with
> eh police department. Police tend to stiffen and back each other when a
> complaint is filed against one of their own but will often respond
> amicably and cooperatively to conciliatory procedures which seem less like
> an attack. And if there is a local or state Commission of this sort I
> would contact it to ask it in a formal petition to ensure that Police
> Officer Standard Training classes and/or Police Academy classes in your
> jurisdiction are getting adequate education about the White Cane laws and
> the pertinent antidiscrimination laws and about the rights of cane and
> service animal users. I will leave it to the wisdom of the NFB’s
> government relations staff and lobbyists to decide if it would be worth
> the time and effort to draft model amendments to the pertinent laws that
> would if enacted explicitly require POST an similar training of law
> enforcement officers to include formal instruction in this area and to
> require that applicants for driver’s licenses when tested show familiarity
> with the White Cane safety laws.
> ---- blindlaw-request at nfbnet.org wrote:
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>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: A Change of Topic-Cell Phone Access
>> (Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc.)
>> 2. Re: A Change of Topic-Cell Phone Access (Steve Jacobson)
>> 3. Re: Pimp My Cane (David Andrews)
>> 4. Canes and Blindness (David Andrews)
>> 5. Re: A Change of Topic-Cell Phone Access (Aser Tolentino)
>> 6. Re: Pimp My Cane (Ross Doerr)
>> 7. Re: Canes and Blindness (WB)
>> 8. Re: Pimp My Cane ( Rob Tabor)
>> 9. Re: Pimp My Cane (WB)
>> 10. Re: Pimp My Cane (David Andrews)
>> 11. Re: A Change of Topic-Cell Phone Access (James Weisberg)
>> 12. Educating Law Enforcement (Joe Orozco)
>> 13. Re: Pimp My Cane (Mark BurningHawk)
>> 14. Re: Educating Law Enforcement (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
>> 15. Re: Educating Law Enforcement ( Rob Tabor)
>> 16. Arizona Attorney magazine (Susan Kelly)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 11:18:38 -0600
>> From: "Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc."
>> <ukekearuaro at valtdnet.com>
>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] A Change of Topic-Cell Phone Access
>> Message-ID: <1396EC6B323A463B922D4F129B95066D at valtd>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>> reply-type=original
>>
>> Hi Cathryn:
>>
>> MobileSpeak, the competition for cell phone screen reader, will also work
>> on
>> the HTC Ozone if you choose to stay with Verizon.
>>
>> Aside from these, there are several mostly Nokia phones that Talks can
>> run
>> on. Here are a few: N85, N86, 6120 Classic, E65, E66, E61I, N95, N96,
>> ETC.
>> I hear that the new Talks5 soon to be released will even work on Nokia
>> Touch
>> Screen phones.
>>
>> Please note that Nokia phones use GSM technology; if you choose a Nokia
>> phone, you will be stuck with either AT&T or T-Mobile for the most part.
>> It
>> is my understanding that the HTC Ozone supports both GSM and CDMA
>> platforms;
>> with this phone, you can still keep Verizon if that is your preference.
>>
>> In the event that you need to use the KNFB Reader, this product DOES NOT
>> currently work on any phones running Windows Mobile operating systems.
>> It
>> works primarily on Nokia phones such as the N86, N82, and 6120 Classic to
>> mention a few.
>>
>> To learn more about different phones that you can use with a screen
>> reader,
>> please consider subscribing to the Blind Phones List using the address
>> below:
>>
>> blindphones-subscribe at mosenexplosion.com
>>
>> Hope the foregoing has been helpful.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Olusegun
>> Denver, Colorado
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 13:41:12 -0500
>> From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] A Change of Topic-Cell Phone Access
>> Message-ID: <auto-000018901081 at mailback2.g2host.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> Cathryn,
>>
>> Like Joe, I am also using an accessible cellphone through Sprint. Maybe
>> I can shed a little light on a couple of things.
>>
>> First, the KNFB Reader phone is as expensive as it is mostly because of
>> the KNFB reader software rather than the phone. However the total price
>> has come down
>> to around $1,500. Of this, $995 is for the software that converts print
>> into spoken text. That is about the same price as the K-1000 software
>> that performs that
>> function on a personal computer. Speaking very generally, the phone
>> itself is roughly $300 and the software or "screen reader" that makes the
>> phone functions talk
>> is around another $200. The price estimated here for the phone is based
>> upon buying a phone from a dealer without going through a phone company.
>> Generally if
>> you buy a phone through a service provider and sign a two year contract
>> or renew one for two years, the phone company in effect subsidizes the
>> cost of a new
>> phone by $150 or $200 or so. Therefore, if you sign a new contract or
>> extend an existing one, it is very possible that you can get a phone that
>> can be made
>> accessible for $100 or so, but you still have to buy a "screen reader"
>> for the phone which will probably cost you another $200.
>>
>> However, as Joe mentioned, there are some phones out there which have
>> some speech built in. These phones can cost you less than $100 with a
>> new contract or
>> an extension, and no screen reader is required. However, phones with
>> built-in speech generally cannot handle e-mail or web browsing, but they
>> can usually handle
>> text messaging now and allow access to your contacts. I believe that
>> Sprint still has the LG Rumor 2 and the LG Lotus and there could be
>> others by now that fit this
>> category.
>>
>> You cannot add a screen reader to just any phone. Like computers, the
>> more advanced phones have "operating systems," and some of these do allow
>> a screen
>> reader to be added. The most common operating system on phones that can
>> be used with Sprint and Verizon is called Windows Mobile. There is a
>> screen reader
>> called Mobile Speak that works with many of these phones. Such phones
>> are sometimes called SmartPhones or Pocket PC's. Common brands include
>> Samsung
>> and Joe mentioned and also HTC but there are others. Many of the Palm
>> phones cannot be used with a screen reader.
>>
>> Many of the phones that work on T-Mobil and AT&T use the Simbian
>> operating system. There is another screen reader that is used on these
>> phones called TALKS.
>> However, Mobile Speak also works on some of these phones, and TALKS works
>> on certain Verizon phones now. Phones made by Nokia are most common in
>> this
>> category, but not all Nokia phones are capablt of supporting a screen
>> reader.
>>
>> I just went through the process of buying an HTC Snap phone which I use
>> on Sprint with Mobile Speak, and I found the whole business to be
>> confusing at best.
>> Therefore, I hope the above helps a little, but keep in mind that
>> something I have written could easily have become out of date since I
>> started this note. <smile>
>> Still, if you can keep in mind that some phones are simply not
>> accessible, some have some built-in accessibility for basics, and some
>> that use Windows Mobile or
>> Simbian operating systems can be made accessible with the addition of a
>> screen reader, you will be off to a good start. Then also remember that
>> you can usually get
>> a big discount buying a phone from a service provider with a new contract
>> or contract extension. Good luck.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Steve Jacobson ,
>>
>> On Tue, 30 Mar 2010 11:03:52 -0400, Cathryn Bonnette wrote:
>>
>> >Thanks much- Do you know if it is possible to purchase the voice
>> >software to
>> >install on a cell?
>>
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> >On
>> >Behalf Of Joe Orozco
>> >Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 9:47 AM
>> >To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
>> >Subject: Re: [blindlaw] A Change of Topic-Cell Phone Access
>>
>> >I have a Samsung Intrepid through Sprint. I switched over from Verizon,
>> >better deal on unlimited data plan. The only advantage through Verizon,
>> >I
>> >think, is that you can purchase their HTC Ozone with Mobile Speak
>> >installed.
>> >Someone can correct me on that, and Verizon also carries the LG line
>> >that
>> >provides moderate accessibility. I also live in DC and both carriers
>> >are
>> >the best ones here in terms of reception.
>>
>> >Joe Orozco
>>
>> >"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
>> >sleeves,
>> >some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> >[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cathryn Bonnette
>> >Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 9:03 AM
>> >To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
>> >Subject: [blindlaw] A Change of Topic-Cell Phone Access
>>
>> >Greetings to All:
>>
>> >
>>
>> >Wondering if anyone can offer guidance on good deals, best
>> >companies, etc.
>> >for cell phones or cell/internet packages. I confess I don't
>> >have $2,000.00
>> >to spend on the KNFB version, though it sounds great. I have heard the
>> >frustration from Verizon employees in their center for customers with
>> >disabilities that no one listens to their attempts to advocate.
>> > I observed
>> >yesterday that several cell phones using "Talks" voice software are no
>> >longer available.
>>
>> >
>>
>> >I'm hoping to shortcut similar research on several companies by seeking
>> >wisdom from the group.
>>
>> >
>>
>> >Thanks in advance for any tips you may have to offer, and thanks for
>> >listening-
>>
>> >
>>
>> >Cathryn
>>
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >blindlaw mailing list
>> >blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>> >info for blindlaw:
>> >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz
>> >co%40gmail.com
>> >
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 14:27:02 -0500
>> From: David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com>
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pimp My Cane
>> Message-ID: <auto-000145729346 at mailfront2.g2host.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>>
>> Mark:
>>
>> Two things: first, discussion of NFB philosophy is not really on
>> topic for this list, nonetheless I will try and briefly answer your
>> question. I think the problem comes in that you misunderstand why we
>> aren't in favor of some audio pedestrian signals, some forms of
>> currency identification etc. First, some of your language, that we
>> "rail against" does not lend itself to reasoned discussion. Your
>> examples to me imply that you think we are against any recognizable
>> identification of blindness. This isn't the reason. I think as a
>> group we are proud of ourselves as blind persons and what we have
>> accomplished.
>>
>> On the other hand we feel that you should only ask for and use those
>> accommodations that are necessary, and when there are other ways of
>> accomplishing something, you should use those ways.
>>
>> You are drawing a black and white picture of the world, and NFB's
>> reaction to it, and the true picture is much more nuanced.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> At 04:51 PM 3/28/2010, you wrote:
>> >I'm following this thread, and I know a large percentage of the folks
>> >here are NFB members; I personally a not, nor any organization, for
>> >that matter. I find a bit of hypocrisy in this discussion: First the
>> >NFB rails against things like audible cross walk signals and so on,
>> >claiming that the blind don't need them, that it's not what the blind
>> >"want," whatever. Same with identifiable currency. Now, however, I
>> >hear a bunch of the same people saying, in effect, "I want to carry a
>> >symbol of blindness! I want to proclaim my blindness to everyone so
>> >that they can alter their behaviors appropriately in recognition of
>> >the fact that I'm blind!" I should think the true spirit of the NFB
>> >might be to use a black cane and give no indication whatsoever of
>> >blindness, except on a purely voluntary basis. I just don't
>> >understand this.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 14:37:34 -0500
>> From: David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com>
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: [blindlaw] Canes and Blindness
>> Message-ID: <auto-000145731384 at mailfront2.g2host.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>>
>> Mark:
>>
>> I suppose it is a goal to "blend in and not stand out" as you say,
>> but not just in a physical sense. I want to be a part of society, an
>> equal, getting the bad and the good do along with my sighted
>> counterparts. With the tools available to me today, cane, dog etc.,
>> I will always stand out some. So instead of trying to hide that I
>> need to be proud of my blindness and promote a positive attitude
>> towards those tools and blind people, so the stigma goes away. There
>> is a stigma because we are not equals -- our unemployment rate etc.
>> prove that. When we change that it won't matter that we carry a
>> cane, use a dog etc. We won't change attitudes by not using canes
>> and the like though.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> At 08:00 PM 3/28/2010, you wrote:
>> >I'm not quibbling with the white cane as a mobility tool. However,
>> >recently a thread started here about carrying a white cane merely to
>> >identify oneself as blind, so as not to cause confusion when being
>> >unable to read name tags, etc., at a symposium or whatever. It was
>> >put forth that canes should be carried, in addition to any value they
>> >may have as a mobility aid, merely to identify a blind person as
>> >blind, and to allow the sighted to give them a "handicap," in not
>> >being able to read name tags. For this purpose, a sign declaring "I
>> >am blind, please act accordingly," would serve just as well, it seems
>> >to me, and the white cane then becomes a stigma-maker, not a tool.
>> >For purposes of this discussion, the "white," color of the cane
>> >becomes the "distress cry of the blind," or something; the identifying
>> >mark by which blind people are known and warn their surroundings that
>> >they are in fact in need of a handicap. This is one reason why I want
>> >to use a cane that's other than white with a red tip. It is very true
>> >that, even with my guide dog, when I wear sunglasses, I am often
>> >mistaken for a dog-walker, not a guide dog user. It's like that old
>> >left-handed compliment, "No one would know you're blind, you do that
>> >so well." That infuriates me when it's said to me. It seems that
>> >some here are trying to avoid just this situation--being mistaken for
>> >a sighted person--when I should think that was the ultimate goal of
>> >any blind person--to blend in and not stand out.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 5
>> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 12:42:23 -0700
>> From: Aser Tolentino <agtolentino at gmail.com>
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] A Change of Topic-Cell Phone Access
>> Message-ID: <AB0AB2D6-502D-49EC-9A47-95A399487F7D at gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>>
>> > I thought I'd chime in with a note about VoiceOver on the iPhone.
>> > Apple includes a mobile version of its screen reader as part of the
>> > operating system. It works with all Apple apps and many third party
>> > apps to varying degrees. I can type on the onscreen keyboard about
>> > as fast as I could on a numeric keypad. The phone starts at $199
>> > with contract and runs about $90 a month for service.
>>
>> On Mar 30, 2010, at 11:41, "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Cathryn,
>> >
>> > Like Joe, I am also using an accessible cellphone through Sprint.
>> > Maybe I can shed a little light on a couple of things.
>> >
>> > First, the KNFB Reader phone is as expensive as it is mostly because
>> > of the KNFB reader software rather than the phone. However the
>> > total price has come down
>> > to around $1,500. Of this, $995 is for the software that converts
>> > print into spoken text. That is about the same price as the K-1000
>> > software that performs that
>> > function on a personal computer. Speaking very generally, the phone
>> > itself is roughly $300 and the software or "screen reader" that
>> > makes the phone functions talk
>> > is around another $200. The price estimated here for the phone is
>> > based upon buying a phone from a dealer without going through a
>> > phone company. Generally if
>> > you buy a phone through a service provider and sign a two year
>> > contract or renew one for two years, the phone company in effect
>> > subsidizes the cost of a new
>> > phone by $150 or $200 or so. Therefore, if you sign a new contract
>> > or extend an existing one, it is very possible that you can get a
>> > phone that can be made
>> > accessible for $100 or so, but you still have to buy a "screen
>> > reader" for the phone which will probably cost you another $200.
>> >
>> > However, as Joe mentioned, there are some phones out there which
>> > have some speech built in. These phones can cost you less than $100
>> > with a new contract or
>> > an extension, and no screen reader is required. However, phones
>> > with built-in speech generally cannot handle e-mail or web browsing,
>> > but they can usually handle
>> > text messaging now and allow access to your contacts. I believe
>> > that Sprint still has the LG Rumor 2 and the LG Lotus and there
>> > could be others by now that fit this
>> > category.
>> >
>> > You cannot add a screen reader to just any phone. Like computers,
>> > the more advanced phones have "operating systems," and some of these
>> > do allow a screen
>> > reader to be added. The most common operating system on phones that
>> > can be used with Sprint and Verizon is called Windows Mobile. There
>> > is a screen reader
>> > called Mobile Speak that works with many of these phones. Such
>> > phones are sometimes called SmartPhones or Pocket PC's. Common
>> > brands include Samsung
>> > and Joe mentioned and also HTC but there are others. Many of the
>> > Palm phones cannot be used with a screen reader.
>> >
>> > Many of the phones that work on T-Mobil and AT&T use the Simbian
>> > operating system. There is another screen reader that is used on
>> > these phones called TALKS.
>> > However, Mobile Speak also works on some of these phones, and TALKS
>> > works on certain Verizon phones now. Phones made by Nokia are most
>> > common in this
>> > category, but not all Nokia phones are capablt of supporting a
>> > screen reader.
>> >
>> > I just went through the process of buying an HTC Snap phone which I
>> > use on Sprint with Mobile Speak, and I found the whole business to
>> > be confusing at best.
>> > Therefore, I hope the above helps a little, but keep in mind that
>> > something I have written could easily have become out of date since
>> > I started this note. <smile>
>> > Still, if you can keep in mind that some phones are simply not
>> > accessible, some have some built-in accessibility for basics, and
>> > some that use Windows Mobile or
>> > Simbian operating systems can be made accessible with the addition
>> > of a screen reader, you will be off to a good start. Then also
>> > remember that you can usually get
>> > a big discount buying a phone from a service provider with a new
>> > contract or contract extension. Good luck.
>> >
>> > Best regards,
>> >
>> > Steve Jacobson ,
>> >
>> > On Tue, 30 Mar 2010 11:03:52 -0400, Cathryn Bonnette wrote:
>> >
>> >> Thanks much- Do you know if it is possible to purchase the voice
>> >> software to
>> >> install on a cell?
>> >
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-
>> >> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> >> Behalf Of Joe Orozco
>> >> Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 9:47 AM
>> >> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
>> >> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] A Change of Topic-Cell Phone Access
>> >
>> >> I have a Samsung Intrepid through Sprint. I switched over from
>> >> Verizon,
>> >> better deal on unlimited data plan. The only advantage through
>> >> Verizon, I
>> >> think, is that you can purchase their HTC Ozone with Mobile Speak
>> >> installed.
>> >> Someone can correct me on that, and Verizon also carries the LG
>> >> line that
>> >> provides moderate accessibility. I also live in DC and both
>> >> carriers are
>> >> the best ones here in terms of reception.
>> >
>> >> Joe Orozco
>> >
>> >> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
>> >> sleeves,
>> >> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>> >
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> >> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cathryn Bonnette
>> >> Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 9:03 AM
>> >> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
>> >> Subject: [blindlaw] A Change of Topic-Cell Phone Access
>> >
>> >> Greetings to All:
>> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >> Wondering if anyone can offer guidance on good deals, best
>> >> companies, etc.
>> >> for cell phones or cell/internet packages. I confess I don't
>> >> have $2,000.00
>> >> to spend on the KNFB version, though it sounds great. I have heard
>> >> the
>> >> frustration from Verizon employees in their center for customers with
>> >> disabilities that no one listens to their attempts to advocate.
>> >> I observed
>> >> yesterday that several cell phones using "Talks" voice software are
>> >> no
>> >> longer available.
>> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >> I'm hoping to shortcut similar research on several companies by
>> >> seeking
>> >> wisdom from the group.
>> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >> Thanks in advance for any tips you may have to offer, and thanks for
>> >> listening-
>> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >> Cathryn
>> >
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> blindlaw mailing list
>> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>> >> info for blindlaw:
>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz
>> >> co%40gmail.com
>> >>
>> >
>> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of
>> >> virus signature database 4984 (20100330) __________
>> >
>> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>> >
>> >> http://www.eset.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>> >> signature
>> >> database 4985 (20100330) __________
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>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> blindlaw mailing list
>> >> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
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>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > blindlaw mailing list
>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
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>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 6
>> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 17:52:00 -0400
>> From: "Ross Doerr" <rumpole at roadrunner.com>
>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pimp My Cane
>> Message-ID: <B46A6F9A01924457B492FEA900358FB3 at none8a46117901>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>> reply-type=original
>>
>> Hey, before they cut off this thred of postings, where do I get one of
>> those
>> gold-plated canes again?
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Chris Danielsen" <cdanielsen8 at aol.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 6:43 PM
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pimp My Cane
>>
>>
>> > Hi Mark,
>> >
>> > With due respect, I think you are misunderstanding the NFB's philosophy
>> > and
>> > some of our positions. The NFB didn't oppose audible signals, or the
>> > lawsuit
>> > seeking identifiable money, because we don't believe that blind people
>> > need
>> > accommodations. What we believe is that blind people ought to have the
>> > tools
>> > and receive the accommodations that are necessary, not just every
>> > conceivable accommodation. Now, you may well disagree with us on what
>> > accommodations are necessary, and that is all well and good. Even our
>> > own
>> > members don't always agree on everything, but we take a vote on the
>> > issues
>> > we disagree on and once a position has been voted on we stick with it
>> > until
>> > there is a vote to change it. The white cane is a tool that many blind
>> > people have found useful, primarily because it helps us get around. A
>> > guide
>> > dog is useful to other blind people for the same reason. In the NFB we
>> > generally believe that a blind person should be able to have access to
>> > these
>> > tools and make choices about the ones they will use. Symbolically, the
>> > white
>> > cane is important because it means we believe it is respectable to be
>> > blind,
>> > but that's not the only or even the primary reason to carry one. If one
>> > has
>> > some vision, a white cane may be useful and will certainly avoid
>> > misunderstandings arising from not being able to see very well. That
>> > said,
>> > of course being identified as blind has its down sides. A lot of us
>> > have
>> > decided that the benefits of carrying a cane outweigh those down sides.
>> >
>> > In a speech on the nature of independence, our long-time president
>> > Kenneth
>> > Jernigan pointed out that the white cane and Braille are simply tools
>> > that
>> > can make a person independent and that many blind people find useful.
>> > But
>> > he
>> > warned us against defining whether a person was independent based on
>> > whether
>> > or not they chose to use any given tool. Sometimes all of us forget
>> > this
>> > warning, but I still think it is generally what we believe. We do push
>> > for
>> > things like Braille literacy and cane training because those who are
>> > blind
>> > or have low vision should know what all of their options are. It's fine
>> > to
>> > make a choice, but we believe it should be an informed choice, and not
>> > one
>> > that is merely made because one doesn't want to seem blind because of
>> > society's attitude about blindness. Beyond that, the choice is up to
>> > the
>> > individual blind person.
>> >
>> > Chris
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> > On
>> > Behalf Of Mark BurningHawk
>> > Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2010 5:51 PM
>> > To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> > Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pimp My Cane
>> >
>> > I'm following this thread, and I know a large percentage of the folks
>> > here
>> > are NFB members; I personally a not, nor any organization, for that
>> > matter.
>> > I find a bit of hypocrisy in this discussion: First the NFB rails
>> > against
>> > things like audible cross walk signals and so on, claiming that the
>> > blind
>> > don't need them, that it's not what the blind "want," whatever. Same
>> > with
>> > identifiable currency. Now, however, I hear a bunch of the same people
>> > saying, in effect, "I want to carry a symbol of blindness! I want to
>> > proclaim my blindness to everyone so that they can alter their
>> > behaviors
>> > appropriately in recognition of the fact that I'm blind!" I should
>> > think
>> > the true spirit of the NFB might be to use a black cane and give no
>> > indication whatsoever of blindness, except on a purely voluntary basis.
>> > I
>> > just don't understand this.
>> >
>> > Mark BurningHawk
>> > Skype and Twitter: BurningHawk1969
>> > Home: Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
>> > Namaste!
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > blindlaw mailing list
>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> > blindlaw:
>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cdanielsen8%40aol.
>> > com
>> >
>> > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>> > signature
>> > database 4983 (20100329) __________
>> >
>> > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>> >
>> > http://www.eset.com
>> >
>> >
>> >
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>> > signature
>> > database 4983 (20100329) __________
>> >
>> > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>> >
>> > http://www.eset.com
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > blindlaw mailing list
>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> > blindlaw:
>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunner.com
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2776 - Release Date: 03/28/10
>> 18:32:00
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>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 7
>> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 17:36:30 -0500
>> From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Canes and Blindness
>> Message-ID: <034501cad059$730318d0$59094a70$@com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> >From my reading of Mark's statement....and he can defend his own....but
>> >I
>> didn't see where he said not to use a cane.
>>
>> One problem in this e-mail trail and others is that many times, myself
>> included, read what we want to out of a person's statement rather than
>> what
>> they really said. I guess, as in court, yowe cannot come to an amicable
>> resolution if the facts are not taken into consideration.
>>
>> I'm sure there will be a statement regarding this one that may take a
>> word
>> or two out of context.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of David Andrews
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 2:38 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: [blindlaw] Canes and Blindness
>>
>> Mark:
>>
>> I suppose it is a goal to "blend in and not stand out" as you say,
>> but not just in a physical sense. I want to be a part of society, an
>> equal, getting the bad and the good do along with my sighted
>> counterparts. With the tools available to me today, cane, dog etc.,
>> I will always stand out some. So instead of trying to hide that I
>> need to be proud of my blindness and promote a positive attitude
>> towards those tools and blind people, so the stigma goes away. There
>> is a stigma because we are not equals -- our unemployment rate etc.
>> prove that. When we change that it won't matter that we carry a
>> cane, use a dog etc. We won't change attitudes by not using canes
>> and the like though.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> At 08:00 PM 3/28/2010, you wrote:
>> >I'm not quibbling with the white cane as a mobility tool. However,
>> >recently a thread started here about carrying a white cane merely to
>> >identify oneself as blind, so as not to cause confusion when being
>> >unable to read name tags, etc., at a symposium or whatever. It was
>> >put forth that canes should be carried, in addition to any value they
>> >may have as a mobility aid, merely to identify a blind person as
>> >blind, and to allow the sighted to give them a "handicap," in not
>> >being able to read name tags. For this purpose, a sign declaring "I
>> >am blind, please act accordingly," would serve just as well, it seems
>> >to me, and the white cane then becomes a stigma-maker, not a tool.
>> >For purposes of this discussion, the "white," color of the cane
>> >becomes the "distress cry of the blind," or something; the identifying
>> >mark by which blind people are known and warn their surroundings that
>> >they are in fact in need of a handicap. This is one reason why I want
>> >to use a cane that's other than white with a red tip. It is very true
>> >that, even with my guide dog, when I wear sunglasses, I am often
>> >mistaken for a dog-walker, not a guide dog user. It's like that old
>> >left-handed compliment, "No one would know you're blind, you do that
>> >so well." That infuriates me when it's said to me. It seems that
>> >some here are trying to avoid just this situation--being mistaken for
>> >a sighted person--when I should think that was the ultimate goal of
>> >any blind person--to blend in and not stand out.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mruniverse08%40gma
>> il.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 8
>> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 17:37:55 -0500
>> From: " Rob Tabor" <rob.tabor at sbcglobal.net>
>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pimp My Cane
>> Message-ID: <DF703EA8F23945B59830BBEB0CFEC302 at Rob>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>> reply-type=response
>>
>> Good evening.
>>
>> Although this thread of conversation began as something quite amuzing and
>> at
>> least arguably relevant to questions pertaining to alternately colored or
>> multi-colored travel canes and their compliance with white cane laws it
>> has
>> evolved into an equally interesting but kokophanous diatribe over how we
>> perceive one another and how the world perceives as people with blindness
>> or
>> otherwise low vision. In other words, the conversation is drifting far
>> from
>> being relevant to a blind lawyers' discussion list for which it is
>> intended.
>> I recognize, however, that Dave Anddrews has final judgment on this as
>> list
>> owner/moderator. Perhaps someone should start a philosophy of blindness
>> discussion list where views like these can be aired and responded to.
>> Best regards,
>> Rob Tabor Vice president Douglas county (KS) Chapter NFB
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Mark BurningHawk" <stone_troll at sbcglobal.net>
>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 5:48 PM
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pimp My Cane
>>
>>
>> > Oh cut that out. I was born blind, too, and I don't have insecurities
>> > about injuring someone; I've never been responsible for anyone else's
>> > injury that I didn't mean to, so stop making it personal when I'm
>> > trying
>> > to keep it general. Blindness is *NOT* a liability any more than
>> > clumsiness or large feet. Having bright red hair can e a distraction
>> > which can cause injury to someone who sees it. I protest loudly the
>> > idea
>> > that blind people, especially high-end, intelligent, lawyer-type blind
>> > people accept the fact that they may injure someone more readily than
>> > a
>> > sighted person with two left feet might. When I see professionals who
>> > are blind accepting this shame instead of actively working to correct
>> > it,
>> > I am sad because this attitude will trickle down to disrupt my life
>> > when
>> > I do something unconventional. So knock off that psychology crap,
>> > please; I use a guide dog, not a cane anyway.
>> >
>> > Mark BurningHawk
>> > Skype and Twitter: BurningHawk1969
>> > Home: Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
>> > Namaste!
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > blindlaw mailing list
>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> > blindlaw:
>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rob.tabor%40sbcglobal.net
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 9
>> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 17:41:23 -0500
>> From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pimp My Cane
>> Message-ID: <034601cad05a$20734620$6159d260$@com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> I'm a member of NFB and have heard the things that Mark was speaking of.
>> Dave, you may be taking your view which you stated. The fact is that
>> there
>> are many members who do what Mark spoke of. And the perception of many
>> in
>> the blind community is as such.
>>
>> I've heard an NFB member rail against the I-Phone because they wanted to
>> dissuade a person from purchasing it so they could waste money on the
>> KNFB
>> reader which is way to expensive. I've heard many a philosophy on the
>> use
>> of straight canes and why we shouldn't use a folding cane.
>>
>> The list goes on and on. I think a point was being made that those who
>> wish
>> to disagree with mark are blatantly overlooking.
>>
>> Again, he can defend his own statements but I've been reading the e-mails
>> relating to this topic. Once again, I and others have gotten on their
>> soapbox on a topic that started lightly. Well, here's to reading some
>> more.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of David Andrews
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 2:27 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pimp My Cane
>>
>> Mark:
>>
>> Two things: first, discussion of NFB philosophy is not really on
>> topic for this list, nonetheless I will try and briefly answer your
>> question. I think the problem comes in that you misunderstand why we
>> aren't in favor of some audio pedestrian signals, some forms of
>> currency identification etc. First, some of your language, that we
>> "rail against" does not lend itself to reasoned discussion. Your
>> examples to me imply that you think we are against any recognizable
>> identification of blindness. This isn't the reason. I think as a
>> group we are proud of ourselves as blind persons and what we have
>> accomplished.
>>
>> On the other hand we feel that you should only ask for and use those
>> accommodations that are necessary, and when there are other ways of
>> accomplishing something, you should use those ways.
>>
>> You are drawing a black and white picture of the world, and NFB's
>> reaction to it, and the true picture is much more nuanced.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> At 04:51 PM 3/28/2010, you wrote:
>> >I'm following this thread, and I know a large percentage of the folks
>> >here are NFB members; I personally a not, nor any organization, for
>> >that matter. I find a bit of hypocrisy in this discussion: First the
>> >NFB rails against things like audible cross walk signals and so on,
>> >claiming that the blind don't need them, that it's not what the blind
>> >"want," whatever. Same with identifiable currency. Now, however, I
>> >hear a bunch of the same people saying, in effect, "I want to carry a
>> >symbol of blindness! I want to proclaim my blindness to everyone so
>> >that they can alter their behaviors appropriately in recognition of
>> >the fact that I'm blind!" I should think the true spirit of the NFB
>> >might be to use a black cane and give no indication whatsoever of
>> >blindness, except on a purely voluntary basis. I just don't
>> >understand this.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mruniverse08%40gma
>> il.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 10
>> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 18:41:33 -0500
>> From: David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com>
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pimp My Cane
>> Message-ID: <auto-000146642379 at mailfront1.g2host.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>>
>> There is -- try nfb-talk. To subscribe either go to:
>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>
>> or send e-mail to nfb-talk-request at nfbnet.org and put the word
>> subscribe in the subject line by itself.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> At 05:37 PM 3/30/2010, you wrote:
>> >Good evening.
>> >
>> >Although this thread of conversation began as something quite
>> >amuzing and at least arguably relevant to questions pertaining to
>> >alternately colored or multi-colored travel canes and their
>> >compliance with white cane laws it has evolved into an equally
>> >interesting but kokophanous diatribe over how we perceive one
>> >another and how the world perceives as people with blindness or
>> >otherwise low vision. In other words, the conversation is drifting
>> >far from being relevant to a blind lawyers' discussion list for
>> >which it is intended. I recognize, however, that Dave Anddrews has
>> >final judgment on this as list owner/moderator. Perhaps someone
>> >should start a philosophy of blindness discussion list where views
>> >like these can be aired and responded to.
>> >Best regards,
>> >Rob Tabor Vice president Douglas county (KS) Chapter NFB
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 11
>> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 16:42:43 -0700
>> From: "James Weisberg" <jimi-law at dc.rr.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] A Change of Topic-Cell Phone Access
>> Message-ID: <68E61DE2FA7F410EA387623187EB1870 at Blind>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> Hello:
>>
>> I have had the nokia, forgot the model, running talks and then moved to
>> the
>> Motorola Q9 running mobilespeaks. At first I found Talks superior but it
>> was obviously due to my familiarity with it and the Nokia I had been
>> using.
>> I soon discovered the "MotoQ" running the mobilespeaks software was much
>> slicker. I had access to basically all blackberry type options although
>> I
>> did not pay for the internet and cannot say how that worked. Currently I
>> am
>> using an iPhone with "voiceover" which is inadequate if you are totally
>> blind but usable with limited vision and worth the hassle.
>>
>> Jimi
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Steve Jacobson
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 11:41 AM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] A Change of Topic-Cell Phone Access
>>
>> Cathryn,
>>
>> Like Joe, I am also using an accessible cellphone through Sprint. Maybe
>> I
>> can shed a little light on a couple of things.
>>
>> First, the KNFB Reader phone is as expensive as it is mostly because of
>> the
>> KNFB reader software rather than the phone. However the total price has
>> come down
>> to around $1,500. Of this, $995 is for the software that converts print
>> into spoken text. That is about the same price as the K-1000 software
>> that
>> performs that
>> function on a personal computer. Speaking very generally, the phone
>> itself
>> is roughly $300 and the software or "screen reader" that makes the phone
>> functions talk
>> is around another $200. The price estimated here for the phone is based
>> upon buying a phone from a dealer without going through a phone company.
>> Generally if
>> you buy a phone through a service provider and sign a two year contract
>> or
>> renew one for two years, the phone company in effect subsidizes the cost
>> of
>> a new
>> phone by $150 or $200 or so. Therefore, if you sign a new contract or
>> extend an existing one, it is very possible that you can get a phone that
>> can be made
>> accessible for $100 or so, but you still have to buy a "screen reader"
>> for
>> the phone which will probably cost you another $200.
>>
>> However, as Joe mentioned, there are some phones out there which have
>> some
>> speech built in. These phones can cost you less than $100 with a new
>> contract or
>> an extension, and no screen reader is required. However, phones with
>> built-in speech generally cannot handle e-mail or web browsing, but they
>> can
>> usually handle
>> text messaging now and allow access to your contacts. I believe that
>> Sprint
>> still has the LG Rumor 2 and the LG Lotus and there could be others by
>> now
>> that fit this
>> category.
>>
>> You cannot add a screen reader to just any phone. Like computers, the
>> more
>> advanced phones have "operating systems," and some of these do allow a
>> screen
>> reader to be added. The most common operating system on phones that can
>> be
>> used with Sprint and Verizon is called Windows Mobile. There is a screen
>> reader
>> called Mobile Speak that works with many of these phones. Such phones
>> are
>> sometimes called SmartPhones or Pocket PC's. Common brands include
>> Samsung
>> and Joe mentioned and also HTC but there are others. Many of the Palm
>> phones cannot be used with a screen reader.
>>
>> Many of the phones that work on T-Mobil and AT&T use the Simbian
>> operating
>> system. There is another screen reader that is used on these phones
>> called
>> TALKS.
>> However, Mobile Speak also works on some of these phones, and TALKS works
>> on
>> certain Verizon phones now. Phones made by Nokia are most common in this
>> category, but not all Nokia phones are capablt of supporting a screen
>> reader.
>>
>> I just went through the process of buying an HTC Snap phone which I use
>> on
>> Sprint with Mobile Speak, and I found the whole business to be confusing
>> at
>> best.
>> Therefore, I hope the above helps a little, but keep in mind that
>> something
>> I have written could easily have become out of date since I started this
>> note. <smile>
>> Still, if you can keep in mind that some phones are simply not
>> accessible,
>> some have some built-in accessibility for basics, and some that use
>> Windows
>> Mobile or
>> Simbian operating systems can be made accessible with the addition of a
>> screen reader, you will be off to a good start. Then also remember that
>> you
>> can usually get
>> a big discount buying a phone from a service provider with a new contract
>> or
>> contract extension. Good luck.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Steve Jacobson ,
>>
>> On Tue, 30 Mar 2010 11:03:52 -0400, Cathryn Bonnette wrote:
>>
>> >Thanks much- Do you know if it is possible to purchase the voice
>> >software
>> to
>> >install on a cell?
>>
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> >On
>> >Behalf Of Joe Orozco
>> >Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 9:47 AM
>> >To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
>> >Subject: Re: [blindlaw] A Change of Topic-Cell Phone Access
>>
>> >I have a Samsung Intrepid through Sprint. I switched over from Verizon,
>> >better deal on unlimited data plan. The only advantage through Verizon,
>> >I
>> >think, is that you can purchase their HTC Ozone with Mobile Speak
>> installed.
>> >Someone can correct me on that, and Verizon also carries the LG line
>> >that
>> >provides moderate accessibility. I also live in DC and both carriers
>> >are
>> >the best ones here in terms of reception.
>>
>> >Joe Orozco
>>
>> >"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
>> >sleeves,
>> >some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> >[mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cathryn Bonnette
>> >Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 9:03 AM
>> >To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
>> >Subject: [blindlaw] A Change of Topic-Cell Phone Access
>>
>> >Greetings to All:
>>
>> >
>>
>> >Wondering if anyone can offer guidance on good deals, best
>> >companies, etc.
>> >for cell phones or cell/internet packages. I confess I don't
>> >have $2,000.00
>> >to spend on the KNFB version, though it sounds great. I have heard the
>> >frustration from Verizon employees in their center for customers with
>> >disabilities that no one listens to their attempts to advocate.
>> > I observed
>> >yesterday that several cell phones using "Talks" voice software are no
>> >longer available.
>>
>> >
>>
>> >I'm hoping to shortcut similar research on several companies by seeking
>> >wisdom from the group.
>>
>> >
>>
>> >Thanks in advance for any tips you may have to offer, and thanks for
>> >listening-
>>
>> >
>>
>> >Cathryn
>>
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >blindlaw mailing list
>> >blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>> >info for blindlaw:
>> >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jsoroz
>> >co%40gmail.com
>> >
>>
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>> signature
>> >database 4985 (20100330) __________
>>
>> >The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>
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>>
>>
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >blindlaw mailing list
>> >blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> >blindlaw:
>> >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/cathrynisfinally%
>> 4
>> >0verizon.net
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>> >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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>> >06:32:00
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>>
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >blindlaw mailing list
>> >blindlaw at nfbnet.org
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>> >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40
>> visi.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindlaw:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c
>> om
>>
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>> signature
>> database 4986 (20100330) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
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>> http://www.eset.com
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>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
>> signature
>> database 4986 (20100330) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
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>> http://www.eset.com
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 12
>> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 21:20:17 -0400
>> From: "Joe Orozco" <jsorozco at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: [blindlaw] Educating Law Enforcement
>> Message-ID: <EC24770AC0A34F3BB0B93B0510529BCB at Rufus>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> On a more serious topic, what is the best course of action to take in a
>> situation where police officers do not know of service animal
>> accessibility
>> laws, or will not enforce these laws even if they are aware of them? A
>> couple of years ago I wound up suing a Chinatown curbside carrier for not
>> allowing my Seeing Eye dog on one of their buses. Since that incident I
>> have monitored other discrimination cases where the police officers on
>> the
>> scene either partially or mostly took the side of the public business,
>> claiming the business could refuse whoever they want or suggesting
>> alternative services to avoid future discrimination. In the moment it
>> seems
>> as though there is very little one can do to trump the authority of the
>> local police department, which seems unfair, but there must surely be
>> something one can do to educate what seems to be a widespread ignorance
>> among the law enforcement community on the issue. Are there not standard
>> training procedures for most law enforcement departments? Are there
>> perhaps
>> legal maneuvers one could use to catch the attention of departments that
>> do
>> not help protect the rights of service animal handlers? With all
>> respect,
>> please do not suggest my going through NAGDU. Otherwise, thank you in
>> advance for any light you can shed.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Joe Orozco
>>
>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
>> sleeves,
>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>> signature
>> database 4986 (20100330) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 13
>> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 18:45:45 -0700
>> From: Mark BurningHawk <stone_troll at sbcglobal.net>
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Pimp My Cane
>> Message-ID: <F7D27CB1-DD97-44CC-8772-F6C22C78DC51 at sbcglobal.net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>>
>> I made a promise to take this off list, so that's why I'm not
>> defending my statements. :) I'd just be repeating myself at this
>> point; I have tried to make my words stand on their own, to not make
>> it personal and to keep my rhetoric to a minimum. My apologies if I
>> failed, but WB's right; things like the railing against the Iphone,
>> the amazingly harsh status *AGAINST* guide dogs, etc., have really
>> turned me off to NFB, as well as the whole "you will be assimilated,"
>> thing. This is why I don't join *ANY* organization; I just don't fit
>> in. :)
>>
>> Mark BurningHawk
>> Skype and Twitter: BurningHawk1969
>> Home: Http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
>> Namaste!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 14
>> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 20:17:38 -0700
>> From: <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net>
>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Educating Law Enforcement
>> Message-ID: <F658ECD40C124A9A9F6FE626B8BBA285 at spike>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>> reply-type=original
>>
>> Hi Joe,
>> Much depends on the jurisdiction that you are in. One option is to
>> request a
>> police supervisor such as a sergeant or contact a shift or watch
>> commander
>> to address the issue. Here in California I am familiar with a situation
>> where a guide dog user was not allowed in a store with his dog and the
>> police warned the business owner that the dog user could sue him and file
>> a
>> civil rights complaint. The important thing is to know the laws in each
>> jurisdiction as well as the relevant sections of the ADA regarding public
>> businesses and accommodations.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Joe Orozco" <jsorozco at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 6:20 PM
>> Subject: [blindlaw] Educating Law Enforcement
>>
>>
>> > Dear all,
>> >
>> > On a more serious topic, what is the best course of action to take in a
>> > situation where police officers do not know of service animal
>> > accessibility
>> > laws, or will not enforce these laws even if they are aware of them? A
>> > couple of years ago I wound up suing a Chinatown curbside carrier for
>> > not
>> > allowing my Seeing Eye dog on one of their buses. Since that incident
>> > I
>> > have monitored other discrimination cases where the police officers on
>> > the
>> > scene either partially or mostly took the side of the public business,
>> > claiming the business could refuse whoever they want or suggesting
>> > alternative services to avoid future discrimination. In the moment it
>> > seems
>> > as though there is very little one can do to trump the authority of the
>> > local police department, which seems unfair, but there must surely be
>> > something one can do to educate what seems to be a widespread ignorance
>> > among the law enforcement community on the issue. Are there not
>> > standard
>> > training procedures for most law enforcement departments? Are there
>> > perhaps
>> > legal maneuvers one could use to catch the attention of departments
>> > that
>> > do
>> > not help protect the rights of service animal handlers? With all
>> > respect,
>> > please do not suggest my going through NAGDU. Otherwise, thank you in
>> > advance for any light you can shed.
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> >
>> > Joe Orozco
>> >
>> > "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
>> > sleeves,
>> > some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>> >
>> >
>> > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>> > signature
>> > database 4986 (20100330) __________
>> >
>> > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>> >
>> > http://www.eset.com
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > blindlaw mailing list
>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> > blindlaw:
>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 15
>> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 23:00:41 -0500
>> From: " Rob Tabor" <rob.tabor at sbcglobal.net>
>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Educating Law Enforcement
>> Message-ID: <3239D11BD0AD48EF8EC29BA6A3206D85 at Rob>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>> reply-type=original
>>
>> Hi, Joe and all.
>>
>> When I acquired my dog guide from The Seeing Eye? in 1980 all of us in
>> the
>> dog navigation training class were provided a copy of the dog guide use
>> protection clause in the White Cane Act applicable to our respective home
>> states. I suspect The Seeing Eye? and other dog guide training schools
>> provide the same service to their graduates. That being the case, the
>> obvious first step is to carry the document and show it to the officer
>> who
>> is questioning your right to bring the service animal. If the officer is
>> not
>> persuaded that s/he has seen the law of the land, the next step is to
>> file a
>> formal complaint with the chief of police or to follow whatever process
>> or
>> apparatus is available in your municipal government to launch a public
>> grievance against the actions of the officer. There is always the option
>> of
>> taking one's complaint to the "court of public opinion" in the form of
>> letters to the newspaper editor, contacting a newspaper or TV reporter
>> about
>> doing a feature on the issue, etc. If these kinder and gentler measures
>> fail
>> to yield the desired results, filing a law suit against the police
>> department under Title 2 of ADA or the applicable state
>> anti-discrimination
>> law may prove to be necessary. One thinng is for sure. Either you will
>> acquire a reputation in town as a troublemaker or people will learn you
>> are
>> not a person to be trifled with. Take your pick. In any event, good luck
>> in
>> these endeavors.
>>
>> best regards
>> Rob Tabor, J.D, Vice president, Douglas County Chapter, NFB
>> of Kansas
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Joe Orozco" <jsorozco at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 8:20 PM
>> Subject: [blindlaw] Educating Law Enforcement
>>
>>
>> > Dear all,
>> >
>> > On a more serious topic, what is the best course of action to take in a
>> > situation where police officers do not know of service animal
>> > accessibility
>> > laws, or will not enforce these laws even if they are aware of them? A
>> > couple of years ago I wound up suing a Chinatown curbside carrier for
>> > not
>> > allowing my Seeing Eye dog on one of their buses. Since that incident
>> > I
>> > have monitored other discrimination cases where the police officers on
>> > the
>> > scene either partially or mostly took the side of the public business,
>> > claiming the business could refuse whoever they want or suggesting
>> > alternative services to avoid future discrimination. In the moment it
>> > seems
>> > as though there is very little one can do to trump the authority of the
>> > local police department, which seems unfair, but there must surely be
>> > something one can do to educate what seems to be a widespread ignorance
>> > among the law enforcement community on the issue. Are there not
>> > standard
>> > training procedures for most law enforcement departments? Are there
>> > perhaps
>> > legal maneuvers one could use to catch the attention of departments
>> > that
>> > do
>> > not help protect the rights of service animal handlers? With all
>> > respect,
>> > please do not suggest my going through NAGDU. Otherwise, thank you in
>> > advance for any light you can shed.
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> >
>> > Joe Orozco
>> >
>> > "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
>> > sleeves,
>> > some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>> >
>> >
>> > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>> > signature
>> > database 4986 (20100330) __________
>> >
>> > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>> >
>> > http://www.eset.com
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > blindlaw mailing list
>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> > blindlaw:
>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rob.tabor%40sbcglobal.net
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 16
>> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 08:42:15 -0700
>> From: "Susan Kelly" <Susan.Kelly at pima.gov>
>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: [blindlaw] Arizona Attorney magazine
>> Message-ID:
>> <1C09B58171332F49B237676A5158B1F7033D6CE1 at EVS02.central.pima.gov>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>>
>>
>> Does anyone else on the list practice in Arizona?
>>
>> I emailed the State Bar last week to find out if there was either a
>> text-only on-line version of the Arizona Attorney magazine, or an audio
>> version, as it has become increasingly difficult to read the publication
>> even with my CCTV and/or screen magnification software. The format of
>> the on-line version does not work at all with screen narration, as it
>> keeps getting "off track" into the other fluff on the sides of the
>> articles and notices. Of course, the Bar has not bothered to even
>> acknowledge my email as of yet. So - would anyone on this list happen
>> to know the answer? I ask because the magazine is often the first, or
>> at least the most in-depth, notification of rule changes, convention
>> information, etc. for Arizona....
>>
>> -------------- next part --------------
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>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindlaw mailing list
>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>
>>
>> End of blindlaw Digest, Vol 70, Issue 24
>> ****************************************
>
>
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