[blindlaw] blind attorneys
Dennis Clark
dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net
Mon Nov 22 01:17:12 UTC 2010
Hi Ross,
Always good to hear from you. Please let's not limit ourselves to regional
groups. Thee aren't enough of us as it is and with the use of the internet
and essentially unlimited telephone service, we can form virtual law firms.
As I hope my recent post have successfully argued, we must organize as a
group and begin pushing as you also suggested.
I downloaded a book from bookshare yesterday, I am half way through it, and
I would greatly enjoy hearing what others think of the ideas and history
contained in it. It is called, "THURGOOD MARSHALL: American Revolutionary"
By Juan Williams. Marshall's struggles for employment in a world where
lawyers of his color were unwelcome in law firms, where clients would not
come to him because they did not trust the competence of lawyers who were
black, and where those who were themselves black did not have enough money
to hire him even when they did have legal problems, are very similar to our
own struggles. Obviously, he made his own opportunity out of the
discrimination which confronted him and all those like himself. We can do
this too. We can accomplish a lot individually for blind people simply
because we are lawyers, and we can achieve even more if we begin acting
collectively. My view is that as a group we are among the most oppressed,
and for the blind even the world of Plessy v. Ferguson would be an
improvement, because separate but equal would be an improvement over our
current condition of separate but unequal. Unfortunately, we as a group are
not demanding equality, but rather we simply ask for accessibility, whatever
that means, and in practice it means very little and falls way short of
equality. My personality is such that I do not want us begging on street
corners, nor do I want us to continue begging the government, private
business, and nonprofit institutions to do that which they are obligated to
do by law. This means we must start demanding and stop begging, because the
two things are not the same. As you can see in the book about Marshal, he
was not begging for equality, he was demanding it using his law license and
the power that gave him as a club. I am committed to the idea that we must
do the same thing and I am a total believer that this is the only way we
will ever achieve equality.
I look forward to hearing everyone else's ideas on how we can organize
ourselves for support and collective action, as well as thoughts about the
book and how Marshall's experiences can guide us as lawyers.
All the best,
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ross Doerr" <rumpole at roadrunner.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys
> Mark, you're a philosopher?
> Hey, someone help him get into law school before he gets away, . He can
> argue with the best of us. For Pete's sake don't let him waste away his
> life in some university philosophy department at low pay. He'll just end
> up with a full beard and smoking a pipe like my old philosophy proff.
>
> All kidding aside, the underlying issue here, repeat "underlying issue" is
> the unemployment rate among dedicated blind professionals who have chosen
> the legal profession as their life work, or as work, not necessarily for
> life.
> We're blind and we don't fit the "norm" for employment strategies that
> seem to work pretty good for our sighted counterparts.
> So what are "we" going to do about it?
> Can we agree that the usual BlindLaw "misquoted" and "mischaracterized"
> and "Misunderstood my meaning" arguments are pretty well spent and have
> gotten us the usual results. a clogged up list serve and nothing of
> substance to show for it.
> Lets try to set up some regional groups to strategize jobs and successful
> tactics in our respective areas of the country.
> How about pressuring bar associations to be pro-active for this particular
> type of diversity? How about trying to rope in some of the real big-shot
> law firms, I mean the movers and shakers who really dominate specified
> areas of law in our respective states to put some action behind their
> well-advertised standards of how much they really care about people out
> there.
> Thats my suggestion as a starting point.
> Who has another idea to add to, or replace it?
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marc Workman" <mworkman.lists at gmail.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 4:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys
>
>
>> Last public posting from me on this. I'm a philosopher, not a lawyer,
>> and
>> we like to argue too, but I won't clutter the list further.
>>
>> James said,
>> Someone help me, does this not make sense (logical if one holds these
>> beliefs/experiences?) irrespective of whether you hold the same opinions?
>>
>> I'm not sure that I ever implied that what you were saying was illogical.
>> Please tell me what I said that suggested your position is inconsistent.
>>
>> When I emphasize the word *all* in your statement that all blind people
>> should forego law school, it is not to point out some inconsistency. The
>> emphasis is to point out how strong a statement it is, how categorical it
>> is. It would be one thing to say that blind people should think long and
>> hard before going into law school, they should talk to a variety of blind
>> lawyers, they should be aware of the pitfalls, they should come up with
>> well
>> researched and carefully worked out strategies, they should have back up
>> plans to fall back on, etc, and they should do all of these things before
>> entering law school. This would be a much more reasonable position, one
>> that is more easily defended, and one that would not likely have received
>> nearly as much disagreement.
>>
>> Of course, that is not the position you put forward. Your position is,
>> or
>> at least was, don't bother, all blind people should forego law school
>> entirely, period. I think that's a far stronger position, less
>> reasonable,
>> harder to defend, and it was challenged as vigorously as it was because
>> it
>> is such a strong statement and because many felt that it wasn't warrented
>> based on their and others's experiences.
>>
>> In sum, your position is perfectly rational, it's just not reasonable, at
>> least not in my opinion. But what is missing from this discussion, and I
>> doubt they're available, are the empirical data regarding the success of
>> blind lawyers, especially those blind before becoming lawyers, at
>> attaining
>> adequate employment both in comparison with sighted lawyers and in
>> comparison with similarly qualified and educated blind people. Until
>> that
>> evidence is available, it's going to be your experience pitted against
>> the
>> experiences of others. And so far, you're the only one I've heard say
>> that
>> blind people should not bother entering the legal profession. So if
>> we're
>> just basing it on experience, it makes sense to go with the more commonly
>> held experience, and that seems to support the position that success is
>> difficult for blind lawyers, but it can be, and is often, achieved, and
>> blind people should continue to enter the profession while working to
>> eliminate the barriers they face.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Marc
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "James Weisberg" <jimi-law at dc.rr.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 1:31 PM
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys
>>
>>
>>> Marc:
>>>
>>> You still seem to be missing my point. Yes I did say all blind people
>>> should forgo law school. You rightly pointed out I stated, "you were
>>> saying
>>> that blind people should not try to enter the legal profession." But
>>> what
>>> you don't seem to have grasped from my last post or the follow-up to the
>>> one
>>> that got this all going is it is ALL about the prospects of employment
>>> vs.
>>> the investment to get there. If this is indeed the point I was
>>> attempting
>>> to make, and it was, why would I conclude a law profession would be
>>> swell
>>> for some blind lawyers and not all?? Someone help me, does this not
>>> make
>>> sense (logical if one holds these beliefs/experiences?) irrespective of
>>> whether you hold the same opinions?
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of Marc Workman
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 11:50 AM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys
>>>
>>> I quoted your entire post, James, so I don't see how it could be taken
>>> out
>>> of context. In what sense was it taken out of context? You're right
>>> that
>>> you posted in response to someone else. When I said it was the original
>>> post, I meant that it was the original post to which the following posts
>>> responded. They were responding to you, not to the post to which you
>>> responded, so it was, in an important sence, the original post.
>>>
>>> I realize you softened and slightly nuanced your original claim, but
>>> nevertheless, your original claim was that, given the prospects of blind
>>> lawyers, particularly those blind before becoming lawyers, blind people,
>>> *all* blind people, should forego law school. That was your claim,
>>> entirely
>>>
>>> within context, and I believe it was that claim to which people were
>>> responding.
>>>
>>> It's true that you didn't say blind people were not capable. I
>>> certainly
>>> didn't say you said that, and I can't recall if anyone else did. You
>>> did
>>> say that blind people should not go to law school, and I believe it is
>>> that
>>> assertion to which people responded. My suspicion, and perhaps I'm
>>> wrong,
>>> is that you wouldn't have received such responses if you hadn't argued
>>> that
>>> blind people ought to forego law school.
>>>
>>> In any case, my response was to Ross who said that the public responses
>>> were
>>>
>>> to a blind lawyer who simply wanted to no about the scarcity of jobs for
>>> blind lawyers. My point was that the responses were, in fact, to your
>>> comments, and you were not just inquiring about job prospects for blind
>>> lawyers, you were saying that blind people should not try to enter the
>>> legal
>>>
>>> profession.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Marc
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "James Weisberg" <jimi-law at dc.rr.com>
>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 12:04 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys
>>>
>>>
>>>> Totally taken out of context Mark as the poster of your reference. I
>>>> was
>>>> NOT the original post but was responding to an inquiry from a law
>>>> student
>>>> about job prospects. Check out my follow up post for a more thorough
>>>> explanation, less curt, of my point which I will repeat again here for
>>>> you
>>>> in case you just missed it:
>>>>
>>>> Taking into consideration the financial and sweat equity costs of
>>>> obtaining
>>>> the credentials necessary to practice along with the ridiculously high
>>>> number of unemployed attorneys (counting only those blind before law
>>>> school
>>>> or their first lawyer position) my advice (as someone who has been
>>>> practicing for nearly twelve years blind) is the "roll of the die" that
>>>> the
>>>> blind law grad will be one of the astronomical few receiving a job
>>>> offer
>>>> it
>>>> does not make sense to me to pursue a law degree when there are so many
>>>> other ways to be a productive part of society and not "roll the die"
>>>> both
>>>> financially and time-wise.
>>>>
>>>> The above reflection does not touch upon whether a blind person is
>>>> capable
>>>> of doing the work! So it seems like to me at least the "defensive"
>>>> responses
>>>> to which you defend perhaps were just "projection" of the poster's own
>>>> "issues?"
>>>>
>>>> Respectfully~
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>> On
>>>> Behalf Of Marc Workman
>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:10 AM
>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys
>>>>
>>>> Ross,
>>>>
>>>> I don't disagree with what you say about the challenges facing blind
>>>> lawyers. I'm neither an American nor a lawyer so don't know enough
>>>> about
>>>> the details to question your statements, but I don't think anyone would
>>>> claim that there are no significant barriers in the legal profession.
>>>> That
>>>> said, I think you have mischaracterized what led so many to respond
>>>> with
>>>> what were sometimes defensive responses. Here is the email that
>>>> started
>>>> this all, in case some have forgotten:
>>>>
>>>> Curious:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Are there any blind, statutorily or otherwise, and EMPLOYED at
>>>> all????
>>>> I'm referring here to those with vision issue prior to employment. I
>>>> would
>>>> suggest the numbers of such individuals should lead all those with
>>>> vision
>>>> issues to forgo law school entirely. FACT!
>>>>
>>>> As you can see, the blind attorney did not contact the list just to see
>>>> about what amounts to the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers. The
>>>> blind
>>>> attorney said that the scarcity of jobs should lead *all* those with
>>>> vision
>>>> issues to forego law school *entirely*. It's one thing to point out
>>>> all
>>>> kinds of challenges facing blind lawyers. It's another thing to say
>>>> that
>>>> these challenges should cause blind people not to enter the legal
>>>> profession
>>>>
>>>> altogether. It's one thing to say we need to work together to overcome
>>>> the
>>>> very real and serious challenges blind lawyers face in the job market.
>>>> It's
>>>>
>>>> another thing to say blind people should look elsewhere for employment.
>>>>
>>>> Given the defeatest nature of the original post, given the pessimism,
>>>> given
>>>> the statement that blind people should forego law school entirely, I
>>>> think
>>>> the response has been pretty much appropriate. I don't think the
>>>> response
>>>> has been to say if you can't do it on your own, then you lack courage.
>>>> Instead, I think the response has been: sure, it's bad out there, but
>>>> it's
>>>> not *that* bad, and here is a bunch of anecdotal evidence for why blind
>>>> people should not forego law school entirely. This seems like an
>>>> appropriate response to me.
>>>>
>>>> If you want to defend the original post, then you are defending the
>>>> belief
>>>> that blind people should not go to law school. If you want to argue
>>>> that
>>>> there are serious challenges that make the legal profession difficult
>>>> for
>>>> blind people to enter on terms of equality with sighted people, I doubt
>>>> you
>>>> will find any disagreement on this list.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Marc
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Ross Doerr" <rumpole at roadrunner.com>
>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:19 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I've read, with increasing interest, the various posts regarding a
>>>>> glind attorney who contacted this list just to see about what amounts
>>>>> to
>>>>> the scarcity of jobs for blind lawyers.
>>>>> The public responses to him have ranged from thinly veiled accusations
>>>>> of
>>>>> laziness to those who seem to feel that if you can't get out there
>>>>> and
>>>>> do
>>>>
>>>>> it on your own, you, in some way, lack courage. All of which were
>>>>> aimed
>>>>> at
>>>>
>>>>> those, meaning blind lawyers, who haven't been able to find work.
>>>>> If you log on to the U.S. Census board and check the jobless rate
>>>>> among
>>>>> qualified, working age individuals with a disability you will get a
>>>>> feel
>>>>> for the jobless rate, and this does not include specific statistics on
>>>>> the
>>>>
>>>>> blind, much less blind lawyers.
>>>>> Everyone here has a valid point to make.
>>>>> I will put my 2 cents worth in as well.
>>>>> Look at it like this, lets say your SSDI benefit check is about $1,000
>>>>> and
>>>>
>>>>> your SGA is just under $1,600 per month. These are valid benefit
>>>>> ranges
>>>>> as
>>>>
>>>>> put forth by the SS ofice this past week here in Maine, which is, in
>>>>> spite
>>>>
>>>>> of what the rest of the country may think, still a part of the United
>>>>> States.
>>>>> There are times I doubt that premise.
>>>>> So, you have a total of $2600.00o per month to live on.
>>>>> Out of that cost, you must pay rent (even with Section 8 assistance,
>>>>> it
>>>>> can get tight), pay utilities, buy food, save for your bar dues and
>>>>> CLE
>>>>> requirements (this latter for those of us who are admitted to practice
>>>>> in
>>>>> states with mandatory bars and CLE), then add in your medical co-pays
>>>>> for
>>>>> doctor appointments etc. Then there are the transportation costs, for
>>>>> Pete's sake don't forget that. Your practice will likely be restricted
>>>>> to
>>>>> your immediate area until you earn enough to be able to pay
>>>>> transportation
>>>>
>>>>> out of your area. Be careful with that, because you may be exceeding
>>>>> SGA
>>>>> if you can afford that kind of transportation.
>>>>> Now remember that you may be violating state law or bar regulations if
>>>>> you
>>>>
>>>>> try to practice on your own without legal malpractice insurance. Now,
>>>>> lets
>>>>
>>>>> hope you can use CaseMaker on your local bar asociation web site,
>>>>> because
>>>>> after all of the foregoing you can't afford a lexis or westlaw
>>>>> subscription to do your research so that you aren't committing legal
>>>>> malpractice.
>>>>> Anyone out there have free access to an accessible law library
>>>>> anywhere?
>>>>> Anyone able to juggle the reporting requirements for either a trial
>>>>> work
>>>>> deal with the SS or VR or just keep up with the SSDI reporting
>>>>> monthly?
>>>>> I think you see where the above statement of facts takes you. If
>>>>> you're
>>>>> going to try it on your own, you may very well be risking a violation
>>>>> of
>>>>> some law or regulation somewhere. Remember, if you are on SSDI, you
>>>>> MUST
>>>>> report any income you make during a month. To those of you out there
>>>>> skilled in SS law, you see my point, there are ways you can violate SS
>>>>> SGA
>>>>
>>>>> regulations and not even know it until it is too late.
>>>>> How many of our fellow sighted lawyers are this restricted?
>>>>> The above is simply a statement of fact for a lot of lawyers who are
>>>>> blind.
>>>>> To be sure, things are different depending on what your particular
>>>>> situation is. There are those who went blind after being in practice
>>>>> for
>>>>> years. There are those who were able to start volunteering their
>>>>> services
>>>>> for free until someone decided that they "really can do the work" - a
>>>>> "test run" being a common practice that most sighted lawyers don't
>>>>> have
>>>>> to
>>>>
>>>>> put up with.
>>>>> Then there are those who haven't ever had to pay their own overhead,
>>>>> so
>>>>> don't really know how expensive it can be on fixed income because they
>>>>> work for a governmental office or large firm that pays it all for
>>>>> them.
>>>>> Some of the foregoing may apply to some of you, to none of you or to
>>>>> all
>>>>> of you. How much of what does or does not apply to you is immaterial.
>>>>> It is simply an observation that, even with an advanced degree, under
>>>>> good
>>>>
>>>>> conditions, it is extremely difficult to try to work on your own.
>>>>> Those
>>>>> of
>>>>
>>>>> you who have done your own accounting, secretarial work and research
>>>>> on
>>>>> top of careful compliance with SSDI reporting regulations know what I
>>>>> mean. Its rough to do. Not impossible, but still pretty darn rough.
>>>>> Then, lets view the next level of plans that the government has to try
>>>>> to
>>>>> fix the depression that we are in.
>>>>> When it comes to jobs, things are bad out there, anyone disagree with
>>>>> that
>>>>
>>>>> observation?
>>>>> So, the government, according to this mornings news broadcast, wants
>>>>> to
>>>>> cut budgets and cut the Federal payroll by laying off several thousand
>>>>> federal employees. The result is, as most of you can see (blindness
>>>>> not
>>>>> withstanding) is that the congress is carefully planning to increase
>>>>> the
>>>>> number of unemployed individuals out there, while simultainiously
>>>>> planning
>>>>
>>>>> to increase the retirement age to further restrict and generally
>>>>> forestall
>>>>
>>>>> overall job availability on a national scale.
>>>>> This mentality will, without doubt, trickle down to state and local
>>>>> governments. So we're all in that boat sooner or later.
>>>>> then they are going to go after social security recipients and cut
>>>>> that
>>>>> area as well.
>>>>> I admit that I don't know anything about how to fix the economy, but
>>>>> then
>>>>> again neither do the economists.
>>>>> My point is just this - regarding jobs for the blind - it isn't good
>>>>> out
>>>>> there and its going to stay that way for a while.
>>>>> If we don't band together and present a united front, we will always
>>>>> be
>>>>> viewed as being what blindness experts (precious few of whom are
>>>>> actualy
>>>>> blind) define us as being. A low-incidence disability population that
>>>>> requires a lot of assistance to get a job.
>>>>> Is it up to us to solve all of our own problems in the job market?
>>>>> Only
>>>>> to
>>>>
>>>>> a point. We can't do it all ourselves, and to assert that we must do
>>>>> it
>>>>> that way is just kidding ourselves.
>>>>> Do I have a job? Not any more. I was laid off at the end of
>>>>> september.
>>>>> That was my first full-time legal job, with benefits in 15 years. My
>>>>> take-home pay was $31,000.00 a year, and that was to support myself
>>>>> and
>>>>> my
>>>>
>>>>> wife. That didn't leave a lot to put away for savings. Up here in
>>>>> Maine,
>>>>> our tax rates can shame Massachusetts.
>>>>> Like most everywhere else, Maine has a very significant unemployment
>>>>> rate,
>>>>
>>>>> and its actual level depends upon whether you want to believe what
>>>>> the
>>>>> State or federal government statistics say, or the Democrats, or the
>>>>> Republicans or the independents.
>>>>> Take your pick, it really doesn't matter in the final analysis.
>>>>> So, is it harder for a blind professional to get a job than for a
>>>>> sighted
>>>>> counterpart?
>>>>> Of course it is.
>>>>> Arguing the validity of that fact serves only to keep our ranks split.
>>>>> Solving the problem is the real issue.
>>>>> Who has a crystal ball we can use to get the silver-bullet answer?
>>>>> "The views expressed in this email are only mine"
>>>>>
>>>>> Ross
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Aser Tolentino" <agtolentino at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 7:59 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Dennis,
>>>>>> I am in Sacramento, UC Davis Class of 2010. The vast majority of my
>>>>>> experience, like many of my friends, is in criminal prosecution. With
>>>>>> budgets being what they are now, we've been lucky to find volunteer
>>>>>> positions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>> Aser
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Dennis Clark
>>>>>> <dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hello Aser,
>>>>>>> Congratulations! I assume you are still on cloud nine today. Where
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> California are you located? I look forward to hearing from you.
>>>>>>> All the best,
>>>>>>> Dennis
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aser Tolentino"
>>>>>>> <agtolentino at gmail.com
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 12:13 PM
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I guess you can count me among the unemployed blind attorneys now,
>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> learned last night that I passed the CA bar. Regardless of
>>>>>>>> disability
>>>>>>>> though
>>>>>>>> many in my class have found it difficult to find work.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM, James Weisberg
>>>>>>>> <jimi-law at dc.rr.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My experience is similar Noel. My point: numerically speaking
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> effort
>>>>>>>>> of the credentials are not worth the "chance" you will be one of
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> "lucky"
>>>>>>>>> one's to get a job offer. Congrats on making it into the public
>>>>>>>>> sector
>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> believe that is the place for those such as us with vision
>>>>>>>>> problems
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> law
>>>>>>>>> degrees. I am currently in the process of waiting for a job
>>>>>>>>> interview
>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>> the Fed myself!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 1:28 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> James:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have lost track of your original point. I hope this response
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>> target.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I was blind during law school, worked as a summer associate for a
>>>>>>>>> nationally-known firm, and received a job offer as a result of my
>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>> during that summer. I was employed by that firm for over five
>>>>>>>>> years.
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> now
>>>>>>>>> practice for the federal government.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I know of others as well who were blind before law school who got
>>>>>>>>> jobs
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>> private firms.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I also know that tremendous discrimination occurs but my own
>>>>>>>>> experience
>>>>>>>>> tells me that it is entirely possible for a blind person to
>>>>>>>>> receive
>>>>>>>>> offers
>>>>>>>>> of employment to practice in the private sector.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Noel Nightingale
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of James Weisberg
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:48 AM
>>>>>>>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have to distinguish, I'm getting back to Dave's comments below
>>>>>>>>> again
>>>>>>>>> now,
>>>>>>>>> between employed blind lawyers who lost sight AFTER they had been
>>>>>>>>> employed
>>>>>>>>> and developed a rep before going blind as being competent from
>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>> blind and thus never given the opportunity to develop such a rep
>>>>>>>>> unless
>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>> can do it on their own as I have. I just don't count blind
>>>>>>>>> lawyers
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>> calculation if they lost their sight after they were established
>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>> point is NOT whether or not a blind person can do the work, I know
>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>> been doing it for over ten years now. My point is the effort for
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> credentials compared with the likelihood of a job offer means go
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> something else . . . that's all. So I too would love the numbers
>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>>>> lawyers never offered employment compared against employed blind
>>>>>>>>> lawyers
>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>> were blind prior to ever practicing!! I'm betting close to
>>>>>>>>> "astronomical."
>>>>>>>>> *smile*
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of mfhurley at optonline.net
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 7:29 AM
>>>>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Prospects for blind lawyers were not good in a great ecomony. I
>>>>>>>>> agree
>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>> Dennis' post wholeheartedly.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: David Andrews
>>>>>>>>> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010 5:26 am
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] blind attorneys
>>>>>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> > James:
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > I would like to suggest that the unemployment rate for blind
>>>>>>>>> > persons
>>>>>>>>> > in most all, if not all fields of endeavor is low. While my
>>>>>>>>> > evidence
>>>>>>>>> > is anecdotal, I don't think that it is necessarily any worse for
>>>>>>>>> > blind lawyers. Over the years I have known a bunch of blind
>>>>>>>>> > lawyers,
>>>>>>>>> > who are working.
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > From what I read, the prospect for all lawyers isn't that good
>>>>>>>>> > right
>>>>>>>>> > now, so it is hard to separate the blindness penalty from the
>>>>>>>>> > bad
>>>>>>>>> > economy penalty.
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > Dave
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > At 05:55 PM 11/18/2010, you wrote:
>>>>>>>>> > >Based upon my experience, Berkeley grad, top tier law grad,
>>>>>>>>> > ZERO job offers
>>>>>>>>> > >despite NEVER not getting an interview, combined with the
>>>>>>>>> > extremely low
>>>>>>>>> > >numbers of blind attorneys I can't think of what there might be
>>>>>>>>> > to discuss.
>>>>>>>>> > >My advice to anyone with vision issues considering law as a
>>>>>>>>> > career is to not
>>>>>>>>> > >waste their time or money they have a greater chance
>>>>>>>>> > >statistically,
>>>>>>>>> > >probably, of getting hit by lightening on the way to law class
>>>>>>>>> > than ever
>>>>>>>>> > >getting an offer of employment. Now if you come from money,
>>>>>>>>> > >forget
>>>>>>>>> > >everything I have said and just open your own firm! THAT IS
>>>>>>>>> > THE WAY IT IS!
>>>>>>>>> > >But there are always EXCEPTIONS. I personally wouldn't want to
>>>>>>>>> > invest the
>>>>>>>>> > >time and money law school requires on the hopes I'll be an
>>>>>>>>> > >exception.
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> > blindlaw mailing list
>>>>>>>>> > blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>> > info for blindlaw:
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli
>>>>>>>>> ne.net<
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/mfhurley%40optonli
>>>> %0Ane.net
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> blindlaw:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/noel.nightingale%4
>>>>>>>>> 0ed.gov
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> blindlaw:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c
>>>>>>>>> om<
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/jimi-law%40dc.rr.c
>>>> %0Aom
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> blindlaw:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai
>>>> l.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> blindlaw:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbc
>>>> global.net
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> blindlaw:
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>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/agtolentino%40gmai
>>>> l.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> blindlaw mailing list
>>>>>> blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindlaw_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> blindlaw:
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindlaw_nfbnet.org/rumpole%40roadrunn
>>>> er.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> ----
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
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>>>> mail.com
>>>>
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>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindlaw mailing list
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