[blindlaw] Windows Eyes or JAWS?

Wed Jun 3 20:15:43 UTC 2015

Hello Mr. Steve and all! This is Helga. How are you all? I have been 
following this tret, and I see a lot of difficulties with accessible 
softwares. I just wanted to tell you in a year or so , I'm plann    ing to 
do an internship perhaps in a court that handles disability right cases. But 
what I wanted to ask you, in these kind of internships do the use of 
software is necessary? I'm just wondring. I apologize if this question has 
already been ask, but since I'm still working on the process of becoming a 
lawyer, I was just curious. I currently use JAWS 14, but I'm having issues 
with it. However, eventually I'm planning in getting a Mac computer. And one 
last question, do Mac computer work great with Braille Displays and 
softwares? Just curious. I look forward in hearing from you soon. Thanks so 
much for all your time and have a nice day. God bless!

Helga Schreiber

Fundraiser Coordinator for Phi Theta Kappa, Alpha Delta Iota chapter
Member of National Federation of the Blind and Florida Association of Blind 
Students
Member of The International Networkers Team (INT)
Independent Entrepreneur of the Company 4Life Research

Phone: (561) 706-5950
Email: helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com
Skype: helga.schreiber26
4Life Website: http://helgaschreiber.my4life.com/1/default.aspx
INT Website: http://int4life.com/

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever 
believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16
-----Original Message----- 
From: Steve Jacobson via blindlaw
Sent: Wednesday, June 3, 2015 11:57 AM
To: Blind Law Mailing List
Cc: Steve Jacobson
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Windows Eyes or JAWS?

Perhaps the lawyers on this list have some answers that would help, but the 
fact is that sometimes there really are
not accessible options for some specific kinds of software, or the software 
that is accessible has some other
drawback that makes it not possible to use in a given situation.  In 
addition, to my knowledge, the ADA applies to
an employer, but it doesn't apply to the companies creating the software. 
The only leverage we really have is to
have the sales of inaccessible products reduced because of their 
inaccessibility, but if there are no good
alternatives, that doesn't happen.  Of course, there are exceptions and 
there are cases where accessibility wasn't
taken into account when it should have been, and at least there is a course 
of action in such cases.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Wed, 3 Jun 2015 15:24:43 +0000, Susan Kelly via blindlaw wrote:

>At least at our agency (county public defender office), my supervisor was 
>part of the committee that eventually
procured the file management program.  Because I use a screen reader (and to 
a lesser degree, screen magnification)
and a co-worker uses Dragon due to paralysis, she lobbied incessantly for 
the programs to be accessible.  At first,
no one - either in administration OR in the varying software firms - even 
knew what that meant.  There is a common
misconception that if something is on the Internet, it must be accessible. 
Once she got everyone somewhat
educated, the administration then said they would still purchase what they 
wanted (arguing cost and general
attractions of the program chosen), and would work with that firm's software 
engineers later to make it accessible.
Over two years later, none of that has happened, and my co-worker and I rely 
on our assistants to help us manage
that program.

>As far as the courts, things are slowly changing - but only very slowly, 
>after years of complaining and threats of
litigation.  Finally, one other aspect - our county government also relies 
now on an automated. Web-based personnel
management program, for everything from time / attendance and payroll to 
general human resources and employee
benefits.  It is also almost entirely inaccessible, beyond the initial 
sign-on screen.  After my continuing
complaints about the extreme HIPPA and other privacy violations involved in 
requiring me to rely on others to
access this program, our ADA liaison and reps from our Human Resources 
department met with the company, which is
apparently the largest payroll management firm in the country.  Their 
response was essentially that they are aware
of the accessibility problems and...they don't care.  They have absolutely 
no intention of making compliance a
priority.

>-----Original Message-----
>From: blindlaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of mike 
>mcglashon via blindlaw
>Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2015 7:53 AM
>To: Blind Law Mailing List
>Cc: mike mcglashon
>Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Windows Eyes or JAWS?

>hi guys:

>I have been following this window eyes or jaws thread a bit and one 
>question comes to mind?

>that is, if the courts and government agencies are all supposed to of the 
>ADA and its provisions in the public
sector portion under title II, then how come these issues are coming forth 
from folks in the field saying that
their software that the agency tey work for is inaccessible?  this is 
confusing to me and says that the agencies
are not taking the ADA title II seriously, or that it simply doesn't apply 
to them?  I could see this happening in
the private sector simply due to ignorance of the law; this would be 
correctable; but to hear of public government
agencies making these faux pas's is quite disturbing to me as an outsider 
looking in?

>Please explain, I need to be educated?

>Sincerely:

>Mike M.

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Susan Kelly via blindlaw
>Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2015 9:46 AM
>To: 'Blind Law Mailing List'
>Cc: Susan Kelly
>Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Windows Eyes or JAWS?

>Alex mentions another screen-reader side issue that has frustrated me, and 
>I think a lot of other folks on this
list.  If you are in an office setting that uses an electronic file 
management program, be prepared for nothing to
completely (or in some cases, even partially) narrate and assist in its use.
>The same is true of any of the court-based file management systems.  Our 
>office (government agency, so no wiggle
room to run something else,
>unfortunately) chose to purchase an electronic file program which is 
>completely inaccessible - as a result, my
assistant does the entries in that program for me, and copies everything to 
a system that I created in Word which
is totally navigable by JAWS.  The court programs have varying levels of 
usability, which I was initially able to
get around using screen magnification software in addition to the screen 
reader.  As that becomes a less and less
viable option, my assistant also transfers that information to an accessible 
format in Word.

>Long story short, a lot of the final choice will depend on the nature of 
>your work environment.

>-----Original Message-----
>From: blindlaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Stephen 
>Alexander Marositz via blindlaw
>Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2015 3:45 PM
>To: 'Blind Law Mailing List'
>Cc: Stephen Alexander Marositz
>Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Windows Eyes or JAWS?

>Okay, taking a break from bar prep to answer this one.

>Ed, this is obviously a loaded question.   A lot of this comes down to your
>own preferences and needs though.  Here are some things to think about. 
>You say you are new to screen-readers.
Does that mean you are losing your vision slowly?  If so, I found that 
window-eyes has some stability issues, that
Jaws and NVDA do not, not at first, but after a few hours of use.  If you 
have enough residual vision to recover
the program when this happens, then this will not be a problem for you.
>Next, are you a braille reader who uses a braille display?  I find that in 
>terms of connectivity, NVDA presents
the least difficulty connecting and configuring your braille display.  If 
you test it out, and find that you have
no trouble connecting your braille display to Jaws and Window-eyes, then I 
would say that all three are superior at
outputting braille, even to Voiceover.
>Do you work in a corporate environment?  Do you use a virtual desktop or 
>anything like that?  If so, Jaws is your
best bet for making that happen.
>Also, if this is the case, cost may not be an issue for you.
>Do you access a lot of complex websites/web 2.0 applications like google 
>docs and sheets?  This is one of NVDA's
strengths but both NVDA and Jaws are superior to Window-eyes on this point. 
Window-eyes is making strides in this
area but I found that many student management web based applications I had 
to use for work wouldn't work with it
whereas the others would.  I would imagine case management programs work in 
much the same way.
>Is security important to you?  NVDA is open source and for some, this means 
>that it is potentially more secure
than the other commercial screen-readers.
>Learning curve. I think Jaws is the clear loser here, it is the most 
>complex, except when you consider that
because it is the industry leader there is a lot of documentation out there 
for it.  Freedomscientific also puts on
excellent webinar based training which is superior to anything that 
Window-eyes (in particular the free Microsoft
version) and NVDA have.  NVDA and Jaws share many of the same commands so if 
you are familiar with one, it isn't
difficult to move to the other.  NVDA's command structure, I found through 
training people to use both, was easier
to pick up than Jaws's though.  Window-eyes is completely different.  many 
of the skills you learn in Window-eyes
cannot easily be brought to the other screen-readers.  One thing it has 
going for it is that it is completely
customizable though.

>If I were introducing someone to screenreaders for the first time, and they 
>were going  to be a Windows user, I
think I would begin with NVDA because it is free and, because most if not 
all of the skills you learn in NVDA can
be brought over to Jaws if need be.  I would move over to Jaws if the need 
arose or if the person needed more
support and/or training than I could provide.  I frankly can't think of a 
good reason why I would start with
Window-eyes.

>What do I use on Windows?  Well, I use Jaws most of the time at home.  Jaws 
>is what I am using right now to study
for the bar and write this e-mail.  I have been a Jaws customer for almost 
20 years except for a 3 year period in
the early 2000s when I used Window-eyes.  At work, I have used a combination 
of NVDA and Window-eyes for the last 2
plus years (almost exclusively NVDA) because I couldn't justify the cost of 
Jaws to my employer.

>I hope these thoughts are helpful to you.

>Alex
>-----Original Message-----
>From: blindlaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Susan 
>Kelly via blindlaw
>Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2015 11:29 AM
>To: 'Blind Law Mailing List'
>Cc: Susan Kelly
>Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Windows Eyes or JAWS?

>I use both, depending on what device I am using, and also prefer Voiceover.
>That said, most legal firms, especially in my home state, are totally 
>invested in Windows / Microsoft type
computers.  For that, JAWS is likely the best.

>-----Original Message-----
>From: blindlaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cody J.
>Davis via blindlaw
>Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2015 11:18 AM
>To: Blind Law Mailing List
>Cc: Cody J. Davis
>Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Windows Eyes or JAWS?

>If you are not set on a Windows computer, all Apple computers come with a 
>built-in screen reader called voiceover.
I have found that voiceover is much easier to learn, at least it was for me. 
It seems to be more intuitive than
JAWS. In high school I was taught how to use JAWS but it didn't really stick 
and I was very slow and limited with
it. I think it really is a person by person basis though. I found quite a 
few YouTube videos that were helpful when
deciding whether or not to switch from jaws to voice over.

>Sent from my iPhone

>> On Jun 2, 2015, at 12:11 PM, Ed Rizzuto via blindlaw
>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>wrote:
>>
>> Hi Folks,
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm new to the world of screen reader technology and would appreciate
>> any thoughts on whether Windows Eyes or JAWS are preferable for use in
>> practicing law.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Ed Rizzuto
>>
>>
>>
>> Edward Rizzuto
>>
>> Law Office of Edward Rizzuto
>>
>> 1280 East 9th Street, Suite D
>>
>> Chico, California  95928
>>
>> (530) 899-9280
>>
>> edrizzuto at edrizzutolaw.com
>>
>> www.edrizzutolaw.com <http://www.edrizzutolaw.com/>
>>
>>
>>
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