[blindlaw] Windows Eyes or JAWS?

[Susan Kelly]

Helga -

It will depend on what court you are at, but they all use computerized access to one degree or another.  At least here in Arizona, Windows / Microsoft type computers and their programs seem to be the norm for courts and law offices, although we can still access web-based programs from Apple / Mac computers.

Not sure on the Braille question - still learning that in my non-existent spare time, but hoping the answer is good!

-----Original Message-----
From: blindlaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Helga via blindlaw
Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2015 1:16 PM
To: Blind Law Mailing List
Cc: helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Windows Eyes or JAWS?

Hello Mr. Steve and all! This is Helga. How are you all? I have been following this tret, and I see a lot of difficulties with accessible 
softwares. I just wanted to tell you in a year or so , I'm plann    ing to 
do an internship perhaps in a court that handles disability right cases. But what I wanted to ask you, in these kind of internships do the use of software is necessary? I'm just wondring. I apologize if this question has already been ask, but since I'm still working on the process of becoming a lawyer, I was just curious. I currently use JAWS 14, but I'm having issues with it. However, eventually I'm planning in getting a Mac computer. And one last question, do Mac computer work great with Braille Displays and softwares? Just curious. I look forward in hearing from you soon. Thanks so much for all your time and have a nice day. God bless!



Helga Schreiber

Fundraiser Coordinator for Phi Theta Kappa, Alpha Delta Iota chapter Member of National Federation of the Blind and Florida Association of Blind Students Member of The International Networkers Team (INT) Independent Entrepreneur of the Company 4Life Research

Phone: (561) 706-5950
Email: helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com
Skype: helga.schreiber26
4Life Website: http://helgaschreiber.my4life.com/1/default.aspx
INT Website: http://int4life.com/

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16 -----Original Message-----
From: Steve Jacobson via blindlaw
Sent: Wednesday, June 3, 2015 11:57 AM
To: Blind Law Mailing List
Cc: Steve Jacobson
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Windows Eyes or JAWS?

Perhaps the lawyers on this list have some answers that would help, but the fact is that sometimes there really are not accessible options for some specific kinds of software, or the software that is accessible has some other drawback that makes it not possible to use in a given situation.  In addition, to my knowledge, the ADA applies to an employer, but it doesn't apply to the companies creating the software. 
The only leverage we really have is to
have the sales of inaccessible products reduced because of their inaccessibility, but if there are no good alternatives, that doesn't happen.  Of course, there are exceptions and there are cases where accessibility wasn't taken into account when it should have been, and at least there is a course of action in such cases.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Wed, 3 Jun 2015 15:24:43 +0000, Susan Kelly via blindlaw wrote:

>At least at our agency (county public defender office), my supervisor 
>was part of the committee that eventually
procured the file management program.  Because I use a screen reader (and to a lesser degree, screen magnification) and a co-worker uses Dragon due to paralysis, she lobbied incessantly for the programs to be accessible.  At first, no one - either in administration OR in the varying software firms - even knew what that meant.  There is a common misconception that if something is on the Internet, it must be accessible. 
Once she got everyone somewhat
educated, the administration then said they would still purchase what they wanted (arguing cost and general attractions of the program chosen), and would work with that firm's software engineers later to make it accessible.
Over two years later, none of that has happened, and my co-worker and I rely on our assistants to help us manage that program.

>As far as the courts, things are slowly changing - but only very 
>slowly, after years of complaining and threats of
litigation.  Finally, one other aspect - our county government also relies now on an automated. Web-based personnel management program, for everything from time / attendance and payroll to general human resources and employee benefits.  It is also almost entirely inaccessible, beyond the initial sign-on screen.  After my continuing complaints about the extreme HIPPA and other privacy violations involved in requiring me to rely on others to access this program, our ADA liaison and reps from our Human Resources department met with the company, which is apparently the largest payroll management firm in the country.  Their response was essentially that they are aware of the accessibility problems and...they don't care.  They have absolutely no intention of making compliance a priority.

>-----Original Message-----
>From: blindlaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of mike 
>mcglashon via blindlaw
>Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2015 7:53 AM
>To: Blind Law Mailing List
>Cc: mike mcglashon
>Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Windows Eyes or JAWS?

>hi guys:

>I have been following this window eyes or jaws thread a bit and one 
>question comes to mind?

>that is, if the courts and government agencies are all supposed to of 
>the ADA and its provisions in the public
sector portion under title II, then how come these issues are coming forth from folks in the field saying that their software that the agency tey work for is inaccessible?  this is confusing to me and says that the agencies are not taking the ADA title II seriously, or that it simply doesn't apply to them?  I could see this happening in the private sector simply due to ignorance of the law; this would be correctable; but to hear of public government agencies making these faux pas's is quite disturbing to me as an outsider looking in?

>Please explain, I need to be educated?

>Sincerely:

>Mike M.


>-----Original Message-----
>From: Susan Kelly via blindlaw
>Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2015 9:46 AM
>To: 'Blind Law Mailing List'
>Cc: Susan Kelly
>Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Windows Eyes or JAWS?

>Alex mentions another screen-reader side issue that has frustrated me, 
>and I think a lot of other folks on this
list.  If you are in an office setting that uses an electronic file management program, be prepared for nothing to completely (or in some cases, even partially) narrate and assist in its use.
>The same is true of any of the court-based file management systems.  
>Our office (government agency, so no wiggle
room to run something else,
>unfortunately) chose to purchase an electronic file program which is 
>completely inaccessible - as a result, my
assistant does the entries in that program for me, and copies everything to a system that I created in Word which is totally navigable by JAWS.  The court programs have varying levels of usability, which I was initially able to get around using screen magnification software in addition to the screen reader.  As that becomes a less and less viable option, my assistant also transfers that information to an accessible format in Word.

>Long story short, a lot of the final choice will depend on the nature 
>of your work environment.

>-----Original Message-----
>From: blindlaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
>Stephen Alexander Marositz via blindlaw
>Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2015 3:45 PM
>To: 'Blind Law Mailing List'
>Cc: Stephen Alexander Marositz
>Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Windows Eyes or JAWS?

>Okay, taking a break from bar prep to answer this one.

>Ed, this is obviously a loaded question.   A lot of this comes down to your
>own preferences and needs though.  Here are some things to think about. 
>You say you are new to screen-readers.
Does that mean you are losing your vision slowly?  If so, I found that window-eyes has some stability issues, that Jaws and NVDA do not, not at first, but after a few hours of use.  If you have enough residual vision to recover the program when this happens, then this will not be a problem for you.
>Next, are you a braille reader who uses a braille display?  I find that 
>in terms of connectivity, NVDA presents
the least difficulty connecting and configuring your braille display.  If you test it out, and find that you have no trouble connecting your braille display to Jaws and Window-eyes, then I would say that all three are superior at outputting braille, even to Voiceover.
>Do you work in a corporate environment?  Do you use a virtual desktop 
>or anything like that?  If so, Jaws is your
best bet for making that happen.
>Also, if this is the case, cost may not be an issue for you.
>Do you access a lot of complex websites/web 2.0 applications like 
>google docs and sheets?  This is one of NVDA's
strengths but both NVDA and Jaws are superior to Window-eyes on this point. 
Window-eyes is making strides in this
area but I found that many student management web based applications I had to use for work wouldn't work with it whereas the others would.  I would imagine case management programs work in much the same way.
>Is security important to you?  NVDA is open source and for some, this 
>means that it is potentially more secure
than the other commercial screen-readers.
>Learning curve. I think Jaws is the clear loser here, it is the most 
>complex, except when you consider that
because it is the industry leader there is a lot of documentation out there for it.  Freedomscientific also puts on excellent webinar based training which is superior to anything that Window-eyes (in particular the free Microsoft
version) and NVDA have.  NVDA and Jaws share many of the same commands so if you are familiar with one, it isn't difficult to move to the other.  NVDA's command structure, I found through training people to use both, was easier to pick up than Jaws's though.  Window-eyes is completely different.  many of the skills you learn in Window-eyes cannot easily be brought to the other screen-readers.  One thing it has going for it is that it is completely customizable though.

>If I were introducing someone to screenreaders for the first time, and 
>they were going  to be a Windows user, I
think I would begin with NVDA because it is free and, because most if not all of the skills you learn in NVDA can be brought over to Jaws if need be.  I would move over to Jaws if the need arose or if the person needed more support and/or training than I could provide.  I frankly can't think of a good reason why I would start with Window-eyes.

>What do I use on Windows?  Well, I use Jaws most of the time at home.  
>Jaws is what I am using right now to study
for the bar and write this e-mail.  I have been a Jaws customer for almost
20 years except for a 3 year period in
the early 2000s when I used Window-eyes.  At work, I have used a combination of NVDA and Window-eyes for the last 2 plus years (almost exclusively NVDA) because I couldn't justify the cost of Jaws to my employer.

>I hope these thoughts are helpful to you.

>Alex
>-----Original Message-----
>From: blindlaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Susan 
>Kelly via blindlaw
>Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2015 11:29 AM
>To: 'Blind Law Mailing List'
>Cc: Susan Kelly
>Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Windows Eyes or JAWS?

>I use both, depending on what device I am using, and also prefer Voiceover.
>That said, most legal firms, especially in my home state, are totally 
>invested in Windows / Microsoft type
computers.  For that, JAWS is likely the best.

>-----Original Message-----
>From: blindlaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cody J.
>Davis via blindlaw
>Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2015 11:18 AM
>To: Blind Law Mailing List
>Cc: Cody J. Davis
>Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Windows Eyes or JAWS?

>If you are not set on a Windows computer, all Apple computers come with 
>a built-in screen reader called voiceover.
I have found that voiceover is much easier to learn, at least it was for me. 
It seems to be more intuitive than
JAWS. In high school I was taught how to use JAWS but it didn't really stick and I was very slow and limited with it. I think it really is a person by person basis though. I found quite a few YouTube videos that were helpful when deciding whether or not to switch from jaws to voice over.

>Sent from my iPhone

>> On Jun 2, 2015, at 12:11 PM, Ed Rizzuto via blindlaw 
>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>wrote:
>>
>> Hi Folks,
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm new to the world of screen reader technology and would appreciate 
>> any thoughts on whether Windows Eyes or JAWS are preferable for use 
>> in practicing law.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Ed Rizzuto
>>
>>
>>
>> Edward Rizzuto
>>
>> Law Office of Edward Rizzuto
>>
>> 1280 East 9th Street, Suite D
>>
>> Chico, California  95928
>>
>> (530) 899-9280
>>
>> edrizzuto at edrizzutolaw.com
>>
>> www.edrizzutolaw.com <http://www.edrizzutolaw.com/>
>>
>>
>>
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