[blindlaw] decreasing reliance on readers as proofers

Sat Nov 12 23:45:02 UTC 2016

Hello all I just wanted to add to this conversation another question. Is
there already a template for legal writing that could be used? If not could
such a template be created? I'm fairly certain that a template that is
generally acceptable could be useful to all in the legal Community. Any
thoughts?

On Nov 12, 2016 6:38 PM, "Chang, Patti via BlindLaw" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
wrote:

This is why I like a system where I get the document as perfect as I know
how, send it to a proofer, and have the proofer either tell me what to
change or tell me what they changed so I learn as I go.

The idea of developing a list of style and proofing tips for lawyers is a
good one.
Maybe one of our CLE topics at national convention can cover this and end
up with a style guide specifically for screen reader users? Keep those tips
coming.

Patti Chang
(410) 659-9314, x 2422
(773) 307-6440
National Federation of the Blind

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Gerard
Sadlier via BlindLaw
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2016 4:28 PM
To: Blind Law Mailing List
Cc: Gerard Sadlier
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] decreasing reliance on readers as proofers

Laura,

I agree with the points you make and think a Wiki would be very worthwhile.
Stylistic mistakes like this are damaging. They suggest to a sighted reader
that the author has not taken trouble to correct what are for them very
obvious errors. However good the legal analysis in your document (which
clients are anyway often not best placed to
judge) that creates a bad impression.

Ger

On 11/12/16, Aimee Harwood via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Miss Chang,
>
> It took a little digging with iOS new structure of emails but I found
> your email thread in response to my post asking questions about
> readers. It had a different subject and therefore was not a direct
response to my post.
>
> We have the same idea. But did someone throw you out the door and say
> have fun here you go or did they help you learn what needed to be
> corrected? It would not be wise to throw your dog out in the middle of
> a deep Lake without first making sure he could swim and helping him
> become a better swimmer before you throw him in the lake.
>
> Maybe we should consider developing a functional mentoring program.
> That could help eliminate some of these issues.  One can't really make
> an accurate assessment of another's character until they spend
> significant time interacting with that person.
>
>
> Aimee
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Nov 12, 2016, at 3:21 PM, Sybren Hoekstra via BlindLaw
>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>
>> This is a really good idea. It might also be useful to compile a list
>> of the various tricks that people use with different screen readers
>> to ensure proper formatting.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Nov 12, 2016, at 14:02, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw
>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> This message is in response to Patti's observation that blind
>>> students and attorneys sometimes rely too much on their readers, an
>>> observation with which I generally agree.
>>>
>>> But I don't think this is the entire problem.  i think, in large
>>> part, blind people don't even know what questions to ask, because it
>>> is hard to know what errors are out there unless someone thinks to tell
you.
>>> I have been inordinately blessed by friends who have given me tips
>>> and tricks both on style and also on mechanics about which I was
>>> utterly clueless.  Things like the fact that if you copy and paste
>>> directly from Westlaw, your quotation marks and apostrophes will
>>> look different than those that arise when typing directly into word.
>>> Or, if typing a single-spaced document with footnotes, it may
>>> behoove you to put a blank line between the footnotes for ease of a
>>> sighted person's reading smaller text.  or that global format
>>> changes such as justifying text "above the line" do not transfer to
>>> your footnotes, resulting in your footnotes remaining unjustified.
>>> Or how you can connect a heading with the first line immediately
>>> following it to ensure that your headings are never on one page with
>>> the accompanying text on the next page.  These are all things about
>>> which I had no intuitive knowledge as a completely blind person.
>>> Without having been told, I would never even have known to ask the
>>> question, and would have continued turning in documents with quite
>>> obvious errors that even proofing with braille would not have caught.
>>>
>>> I think it would be beneficial for these purposes for the NFb
>>> lawyers division to compile a list of similar formatting issues,
>>> perhaps in a wiki-type format so that everyone could contribute.  Of
>>> course, some of these things come down to stylistic preference, but
>>> many of them don't.  Has anyone else ever thought of this?
>>>
>>> Laura
>>>
>>>> On 11/11/16, Chang, Patti via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>> I think the bigger question here is what should you be doing. If
>>>> you rely too much on your readers for proofing then you do not
>>>> become a really good
>>>> proofer   for yourself. We should all use Proof readers in the final
>>>> instance to catch visual things we miss but I see too many students
>>>> were lying to heavily on their proofers.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Every day we raise the expectations of blind people in the
>>>> National Federation of the Blind."
>>>>
>>>> Patti S.  Gregory Chang Esq.
>>>> Director of Outreach
>>>> National Federation of the Blind
>>>> Direct phone: (410) 659-9314 extension 2422
>>>> Mobile: (773) 307-6440
>>>> http://WWW.NFB.org<https://protect-us.
>>>> http://WWW.NFB.org>
>>>>
>>>> On Nov 11, 2016, at 8:57 PM, Aimee Harwood via BlindLaw
>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Greetings everyone,
>>>>
>>>> I am getting a reader who is paid by the state.  This reader will
>>>> perform reading of any material for school purposes that I need
>>>> them to read.
>>>> They
>>>> will also proof any assignments before I hand them in.  I will use
>>>> them during research to help locate something on the screen that is
>>>> hard to locate it is too time consuming to navigate to just to get
>>>> that one bit of info. Basically the individual will assist with
>>>> anything vision related.
>>>>
>>>> My school assigns a judicial opinion the first semester of the 1L year.
>>>> All
>>>> graded assignments have restrictions on students getting outside
>>>> assistance.
>>>> We are not allowed to let anyone see our work or assist us in any
>>>> way regarding the assignment including research. If a student
>>>> violates any of the restrictions, they violate the honor code.
>>>>
>>>> Now that you have the basic situation, can the school penalize me
>>>> for using a reader to assist me in any visual aspect of the
>>>> assignment? If I use the reader to verify the formatting or point
>>>> out any issues they see that I may have missed because I didn't see
>>>> it?  What about penalizing me for using the reader to assist in
>>>> research to find what I ask them to find  or highlight what I ask
>>>> them to highlight? Basically, can they penalize me for the reader
>>>> performing non-essential tasks on graded assignments?  How much
>>>> control does the school have over the person paid by the state to
>>>> assist with outside of class activities as long as I am the one
>>>> doing the legal work?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Aimee
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
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>
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