[blindlaw] decreasing reliance on readers as proofers

Sat Nov 12 23:55:10 UTC 2016

Brian Hartgen has a very useful training course on how to use MS Word
with JAWS; it's expensive, but worth the price. I have thought of
recording something similar as a basic intro to Word for bling
attorneys and law students. I'm on law review now and do all the
cite-check assignments myself; my editors don't send too much back.
There are definitely ways to do it.

On 11/12/16, Nicole Askins via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Hello all I just wanted to add to this conversation another question. Is
> there already a template for legal writing that could be used? If not could
> such a template be created? I'm fairly certain that a template that is
> generally acceptable could be useful to all in the legal Community. Any
> thoughts?
>
> On Nov 12, 2016 6:38 PM, "Chang, Patti via BlindLaw" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> wrote:
>
> This is why I like a system where I get the document as perfect as I know
> how, send it to a proofer, and have the proofer either tell me what to
> change or tell me what they changed so I learn as I go.
>
> The idea of developing a list of style and proofing tips for lawyers is a
> good one.
> Maybe one of our CLE topics at national convention can cover this and end
> up with a style guide specifically for screen reader users? Keep those tips
> coming.
>
>
> Patti Chang
> (410) 659-9314, x 2422
> (773) 307-6440
> National Federation of the Blind
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Gerard
> Sadlier via BlindLaw
> Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2016 4:28 PM
> To: Blind Law Mailing List
> Cc: Gerard Sadlier
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] decreasing reliance on readers as proofers
>
> Laura,
>
> I agree with the points you make and think a Wiki would be very worthwhile.
> Stylistic mistakes like this are damaging. They suggest to a sighted reader
> that the author has not taken trouble to correct what are for them very
> obvious errors. However good the legal analysis in your document (which
> clients are anyway often not best placed to
> judge) that creates a bad impression.
>
> Ger
>
> On 11/12/16, Aimee Harwood via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> Miss Chang,
>>
>> It took a little digging with iOS new structure of emails but I found
>> your email thread in response to my post asking questions about
>> readers. It had a different subject and therefore was not a direct
> response to my post.
>>
>> We have the same idea. But did someone throw you out the door and say
>> have fun here you go or did they help you learn what needed to be
>> corrected? It would not be wise to throw your dog out in the middle of
>> a deep Lake without first making sure he could swim and helping him
>> become a better swimmer before you throw him in the lake.
>>
>> Maybe we should consider developing a functional mentoring program.
>> That could help eliminate some of these issues.  One can't really make
>> an accurate assessment of another's character until they spend
>> significant time interacting with that person.
>>
>>
>> Aimee
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Nov 12, 2016, at 3:21 PM, Sybren Hoekstra via BlindLaw
>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> This is a really good idea. It might also be useful to compile a list
>>> of the various tricks that people use with different screen readers
>>> to ensure proper formatting.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>> On Nov 12, 2016, at 14:02, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw
>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> This message is in response to Patti's observation that blind
>>>> students and attorneys sometimes rely too much on their readers, an
>>>> observation with which I generally agree.
>>>>
>>>> But I don't think this is the entire problem.  i think, in large
>>>> part, blind people don't even know what questions to ask, because it
>>>> is hard to know what errors are out there unless someone thinks to tell
> you.
>>>> I have been inordinately blessed by friends who have given me tips
>>>> and tricks both on style and also on mechanics about which I was
>>>> utterly clueless.  Things like the fact that if you copy and paste
>>>> directly from Westlaw, your quotation marks and apostrophes will
>>>> look different than those that arise when typing directly into word.
>>>> Or, if typing a single-spaced document with footnotes, it may
>>>> behoove you to put a blank line between the footnotes for ease of a
>>>> sighted person's reading smaller text.  or that global format
>>>> changes such as justifying text "above the line" do not transfer to
>>>> your footnotes, resulting in your footnotes remaining unjustified.
>>>> Or how you can connect a heading with the first line immediately
>>>> following it to ensure that your headings are never on one page with
>>>> the accompanying text on the next page.  These are all things about
>>>> which I had no intuitive knowledge as a completely blind person.
>>>> Without having been told, I would never even have known to ask the
>>>> question, and would have continued turning in documents with quite
>>>> obvious errors that even proofing with braille would not have caught.
>>>>
>>>> I think it would be beneficial for these purposes for the NFb
>>>> lawyers division to compile a list of similar formatting issues,
>>>> perhaps in a wiki-type format so that everyone could contribute.  Of
>>>> course, some of these things come down to stylistic preference, but
>>>> many of them don't.  Has anyone else ever thought of this?
>>>>
>>>> Laura
>>>>
>>>>> On 11/11/16, Chang, Patti via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>> I think the bigger question here is what should you be doing. If
>>>>> you rely too much on your readers for proofing then you do not
>>>>> become a really good
>>>>> proofer   for yourself. We should all use Proof readers in the final
>>>>> instance to catch visual things we miss but I see too many students
>>>>> were lying to heavily on their proofers.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Every day we raise the expectations of blind people in the
>>>>> National Federation of the Blind."
>>>>>
>>>>> Patti S.  Gregory Chang Esq.
>>>>> Director of Outreach
>>>>> National Federation of the Blind
>>>>> Direct phone: (410) 659-9314 extension 2422
>>>>> Mobile: (773) 307-6440
>>>>> http://WWW.NFB.org<https://protect-us.
>>>>> http://WWW.NFB.org>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Nov 11, 2016, at 8:57 PM, Aimee Harwood via BlindLaw
>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org<mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Greetings everyone,
>>>>>
>>>>> I am getting a reader who is paid by the state.  This reader will
>>>>> perform reading of any material for school purposes that I need
>>>>> them to read.
>>>>> They
>>>>> will also proof any assignments before I hand them in.  I will use
>>>>> them during research to help locate something on the screen that is
>>>>> hard to locate it is too time consuming to navigate to just to get
>>>>> that one bit of info. Basically the individual will assist with
>>>>> anything vision related.
>>>>>
>>>>> My school assigns a judicial opinion the first semester of the 1L
>>>>> year.
>>>>> All
>>>>> graded assignments have restrictions on students getting outside
>>>>> assistance.
>>>>> We are not allowed to let anyone see our work or assist us in any
>>>>> way regarding the assignment including research. If a student
>>>>> violates any of the restrictions, they violate the honor code.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now that you have the basic situation, can the school penalize me
>>>>> for using a reader to assist me in any visual aspect of the
>>>>> assignment? If I use the reader to verify the formatting or point
>>>>> out any issues they see that I may have missed because I didn't see
>>>>> it?  What about penalizing me for using the reader to assist in
>>>>> research to find what I ask them to find  or highlight what I ask
>>>>> them to highlight? Basically, can they penalize me for the reader
>>>>> performing non-essential tasks on graded assignments?  How much
>>>>> control does the school have over the person paid by the state to
>>>>> assist with outside of class activities as long as I am the one
>>>>> doing the legal work?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Aimee
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
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