[blindlaw] Seeking guidance

Wed Dec 26 15:59:10 UTC 2018

On number 5, that's why I made the caveat about being unsure on that
point--I'm fully willing to admit that I'm wrong about that.

I still think you're painting an overly rosy picture of the
possibilities, but I'm not going to rehash the points I made in
another 2,000 word email. But comparing the legal job market to the
academic job market is a non sequitur; the fact that another job
market is terrible doesn't make the decision to go to law school any
more rational.

Again, perhaps I am not as good at writing cover letters as you;
perhaps Ohio's job market is better than Pennsylvania's; there are
certainly other factors I could mention. But, as I said, my experience
is certainly not unique. Essentially, you acknowledge all the points I
made above, you just believe that they can either be mitigated or
aren't that important. But I was told none of these things before I
went to law school, so it's important to me that people have accurate
information before making that sort of decision.

On 12/26/18, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> I think this question has been framed the wrong way. The real question
> is, or should be, do you want to become a lawyer? If so, then law school
> is the only means to that end, , for better or worse.
>
> A few points:
>
> 1. Law school is expensive; no doubt about that. But there are ways to
> mitigate that expense: scholarships, loan repayment assistance programs
> for people with public interest jobs, etc. I went into the application
> process   knowing that I did not want to pay a dime in tuition.  I got
> an LSAT score that was good enough but nothing to write home about and
> landed a full tuition scholarship to Ohio State--a bit below my desired
> ranking cutoff but good for me for a variety of other reasons. So I went
> and have no regrets, albeit a bit less hair than I did before starting.
>
> 2. The LSAT is hard. Sure it is, but it is more than possible to do well
> with self-study using prep materials. The only problem is the games
> section, for which there are no accessible study aids--at least not to
> my knowledge.
>
> 3. Law school is a huge time suck. Sure it is, as is grad school, as is
> just about every other intense form of career preparation.
>
> 4. The legal job market is terrible. It's not great, but it is a ton
> better than the academic job market. Take my word for it.
>
> 5. Only lower-tier schools accept the GRE. Well, no, since Harvard now
> accepts the GRE.
>
> 6. There's no point in going to law school unless you are in the T20.
> Again no, because plenty of law grads outside the T20, and even  outside
> of tier 1 schools, get jobs. The real problem is, and continues to be,
> employment discrimination. I finished in the top 10% of my class at Ohio
> State, was on law review, and checked all the other boxes that big firms
> like. Guess how many big firms in Ohio wanted me? That would be zero.
> But I landed a job at a great firm, and although I don't like talking
> salary, let's say it's higher than $35k.
>
> 7. Law school is a scam. Again, not really, at least not unless you're
> looking at the huge diploma mills with terrible job placement numbers.
> Whatever else you do, look at your desired school's job placement
> numbers, NALP tracks these. If they're too low for you, then write  that
> school off and move on.
>
> On 12/25/2018 5:35 PM, Kelby Carlson via BlindLaw wrote:
>> I am going to be the contrarian here and say that, absent some very
>> specific circumstances, you probably should not go to law school. I
>> will explain why at some length.
>>
>> First, law school is extremely expensive. We are talking at least
>> $40,000 per year, and considerably more than that if you want to
>> attend a good school (which you do, as I'll get to in a moment.) There
>> are scholarships, of course, but they are competitive and there aren't
>> that many. If you are planning on being an evening student, you can
>> add another year of tuition to your costs. You may be able to get a
>> state agency to pay for some of the education. I am not sure how your
>> vocational rehabilitation handles career transitions like the one you
>> envision. It is still likely, however, that you will be atking on a
>> considerable amount of debt. This debt is probably going to be very
>> difficult to pay off unless you get an extremely high-paying job.
>>
>> Let's talk about law school a little more specifically. You were
>> asking whether or not you should take the GRE or the LSAT. I am not
>> familiar with the law schools that accept GRE schools, but I suspect
>> they are in the minority. THe schools that will give you the best
>> chance at a good job will almost certainly want an LSAT score, and
>> your chances of getting a scholarship are considerably higher with
>> one. The LSAT is a demanding test. Believe me when I say that
>> self-study is probably not a good idea, and considerable study is
>> required. (I did not take a course and am positive my score suffered
>> for it.) As was stated above, the LSAC is miserly with accommodations
>> even after the 2015 consent decree requiring them to grant more and
>> better accommodations to those with disabilities. (I can say this with
>> some confidence as I just took the MPRE, which is administered by the
>> LSAC.) So be prepared to pay a decent amount for a prep course, to
>> study a lot (and to learn nothing of relevance), and to spend several
>> months trying to get accommodations.
>>
>> If you get a high LSAT score, you have a better chance of getting a
>> spot at a good law school. If you cannot get into a top 20 law school,
>> you shouldn't even bother going. (I went to the Columbus School of
>> Law, which is underrated but still nowhere near the top.) The top 20
>> schools are the only ones that give a really, really strong chance of
>> knabbing a high-paying job or a prestigious clerkship right after law
>> school. You will want one of those given the debts you will probably
>> accrue during your studies.
>>
>> If you go to law school, you need to realize a number of things. First
>> of all, you will be getting a three year education that should
>> probably be two or even one year. You will essentially repeat your
>> entire first year over again while studying for the bar exam. Second,
>> all law school exams and some law school papers are graded on a curve.
>> This means that not only will you need to do very well objectively,
>> you will need to do better than all of your classmates consistently
>> over 6 semesters to maintain a high GPA. (If you are thinking about
>> trying for a 4.0, know that my school's head registrar said that he
>> has seen only one student ever receive a perfect GPA.) If you are not
>> in the top 10 percent of your class, finding a high-paying job that
>> will give you good experience will be extremely difficult unless you
>> are fabulous at networking.
>>
>> Keep in mind also that law school takes up all your time. if you are
>> an evening student with a full-time job, you will have very limited
>> time to spend with your family over the next four years if you want to
>> maintain an extremely high GPA. The material you will be studying is
>> extremely dry, but you will need to know all of it cold by exams. Your
>> exams will probably all be closed-book; if they are open-book,
>> however, they might actually be harder--professors will often up the
>> difficulty of their exams if they allow you to use the book or the
>> outline.
>>
>> If you want to do law review or journal as an evening student--this is
>> possible, I know several people who did--you will be devoting even
>> more time to largely thankless, tedious work for which you will never
>> be acknowledged. (If spending hours correcting minor grammatical
>> errors in citations and trying to handle MS Word's abhorrent footnote
>> interface appeals to you, than journal is definitely for you.)
>>
>> So, all in all, law school itself is a tiring, unpleasant experience
>> that will waste a lot of your time. I am speaking as someone who
>> really liked his law school and has some very fond memories of it.
>>
>> Let's move on to the question of what else you will be doing in law
>> school. If you do not get internships after your first year during the
>> summer and probably every semester thereafter, you are dooming your
>> potential in the job market. Much like scholarships, internships are
>> extremely competitive but absolutely necessary if you are going to get
>> the most out of your legal education. You will need to find an
>> internship that will actually give you meaningful work, which is
>> harder than it sounds. You will also probably want to find one that
>> pays, which is extremely difficult. The best kind of internship is a
>> summer associate position between your second and third years of
>> school, but this is a full-time position that will be harder to
>> arrange if you are an evening students. Once again, if you aren't
>> extremely highly ranked in your class your chances are low.
>>
>> Let's say that you don't manage to grab a lot of paying internships,
>> but you do get several government internships and maintain decent
>> grades throughout law school (as I did). In your third year you will
>> then begin applying for jobs and judicial clerkships. You will
>> probably send out hundreds of applications and get responses from
>> almost no one. If you want to clerk with a federal judge, you will
>> have already begun applying your second year of law school because
>> most federal judges are looking two years out. Much like prestigious
>> firm jobs, federal clerkships are highly coveted because of their
>> resume-building potential and you will be extremely lucky to get one.
>> Even state clerkships will be challenging to obtain; hundreds of law
>> students will be applying for each one. If you are lucky you will
>> perhaps get around ten interviews. If you are extremely lucky you will
>> get offered a job by more than one employer. However, unless you have
>> managed to obtain a high-paying job at a large firm your dividends
>> will not be large. I will give you my own example: by the time I had
>> obtained employment out of law school it was as an attorney in a very
>> rural county making $35,000 a year. And you know what? I was ecstatic
>> when I received the offer, even though I would be making $5,000 less a
>> year than my wife who works as a nanny.
>>
>> So, you need to ask yourself several questions. First, can you get
>> into a top 20 law school? Second, what kind of law will you practice?
>> What makes you particularly well-equipped to do so? If you cannot
>> answer this question, then you will not be able to effectively plan
>> your career during law school. Third, are you willing to sacrifice the
>> time and financial rewards you could have received, and incur a
>> potentially large amount of debt? Fourth, can you confidently say that
>> you can maintain a consistently high GPA at a prestigious school and
>> procure good internships (which may not pay) every semester of law
>> school? If your answer to any of those questions is no, you should not
>> go.
>>
>> In my opinion, law school is worth it for almost no one and is
>> basically a scam. The legal job market is terrible, but law schools
>> will not make this clear to you because they are desperate to maintain
>> their student body (many of them expanded pre-recession and are trying
>> to recover.) If you do get a job, it will probably not pay well, and
>> it it does you may very well end up hating it, because the legal
>> profession is nothing like how it is portrayed on television. This
>> video is essentially accurate:
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM7K0LtkAvs
>>
>> I hate to be the one to rain on everyone's parade. I'm sure there will
>> be many people who disagree with me here, some perhaps justifiably
>> (Laura Wook, a member of this list, clerks for Clarence Thomas.) But I
>> feel that I needed to state these things because a lot of people will
>> not.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Kelby Carlson
>>
>>
>>
>> On 12/24/18, Nicole Poston via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> All,This is a very interesting thread for me.  In some ways, I am not
>>> like
>>> Maura....I do not have children of my own.  However, I have in the last
>>> few
>>> years been encouraged by numerous individuals in practically every facet
>>> of
>>> my life to consider the idea of going to law school.  Like Maura, I would
>>> be
>>> considered a non-traditional student and I do not have any interest in
>>> working at some big NYC law firm...my expectations are more reasonable.
>>> I
>>> am currently in my 17th year of my current professional career and have a
>>> masters degree I finished like 10 years ago. I'm required in my current
>>> profession to get at least 6 credit hours every 5 years, which I have
>>> done
>>> online...but that has been the extent of my recent experiences at the
>>> collegiate level.  I definitely have an interest in pursuing law but the
>>> idea of leaping into a completely new realm is definitely daunting.   I
>>> guess one of my nagging questions is.... can some of law school be done
>>> while still working?  Or does one need to plan on just doing law school
>>> and
>>> putting work aside for those few years?  Any advice on this or anything
>>> else
>>> you might find helpful is welcome and appreciated, either on this thread
>>> or
>>> privately.
>>> Happy Holidays!Nicole
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Bill Spiry via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: b.s.spiry <b.s.spiry at gmail.com>
>>> Sent: Mon, Dec 24, 2018 5:46 pm
>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance
>>>
>>> Greetings Maura.
>>>
>>> I can relate to your itch to go for your J.D. despite what some may be
>>> telling you are bad odds for success. I took that plunge at the age of 48
>>> with an established 22 year professional career already behind me,
>>> married,
>>> couple of teenage kids still at home, and plenty of uncertainty. It was
>>> Scary as hell, and what my heart was telling me to do. I paid a price for
>>> it
>>> and I do not regret my decision.
>>>
>>>   So that is my first advice, take the time to listen carefully to your
>>> heart
>>> on this. You need to do it because it's  what is right for you, not for
>>> anyone else. And if it is right for you and you know it, ignore those who
>>> will try to convince you that you'd be crazy to do it as someone without
>>> sight (including other blind lawyers).
>>>
>>> for the most part, I agree with the comments and advice from others on
>>> this
>>> list regarding testing and strategy. So know this,  yeah, it's going to
>>> be
>>> damned hard and you're going to hit some walls that will be tough to get
>>> around/over/through but you probably know if you've got the metal for it
>>> in
>>> you. So go for it if you know it's right for you and you believe you've
>>> got
>>> the metal to find your way through some unique challenges. Follow your
>>> heart.
>>>
>>> My best wishes to you and yours for the holidays and the new year.
>>>
>>> Bill
>>>
>>>
>>> Bill Spiry
>>> Attorney at Law
>>> Spiry Law LLC
>>> (541) 600-3301
>>> Bill at SpiryLaw.com
>>> Bill.spiry at gmail.com
>>>
>>> "what's within you is stronger than what's in your way" - Erik
>>> Weihenmayer
>>>
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>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Maura Kutnyak
>>> via
>>> BlindLaw
>>> Sent: Monday, December 24, 2018 7:42 AM
>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak <maurakutnyak at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance
>>>
>>> One more thing, having sent this message from your iPhone, did you use a
>>> separate keyboard or have you found the Braille input useful?
>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 9:27 AM, James Fetter via BlindLaw
>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> First of all, I agree with Paul. If this is your dream, go for it. Just
>>> know that more than a sane amount of work, work, and work, awaits you.
>>>> As to your questions:
>>>> 1. Having taken both the GRE and LSAT, I can state with a high level of
>>> confidence that the GRE does not present half the accommodations barriers
>>> the LSAT does. The logic games section of the LSAT requires either the
>>> drawing of diagrams or the use of Excel. There are no accessible study
>>> aids
>>> that teach you how to use Excel to ace this section. And at least when I
>>> took the LSAT, getting basic accommodations from LSAC was like waging a
>>> war
>>> of attrition. So if you don't mind being limited to the programs that
>>> accept
>>> the GRE, then do that and save yourself some pain and suffering.
>>>> 2. Going to law school after grad school is an interesting transition.
>>>> All
>>> of a sudden, you're in a classroom with people ten years younger-people
>>> who
>>> are generally used to studying for high-pressure exams and who seem to
>>> have
>>> an inexhaustible amount of energy. Yet, you will have advantages: the
>>> ability to think in different ways, the ability to write both well and
>>> more
>>> quickly, etc. You will be fine, as long as you don't get sucked into the
>>> grades/money dynamic (I.e. the idea that the only reason you're there is
>>> to
>>> get top grades so that you can land a job at a NYC law firm). Nothing
>>> wrong
>>> with those goals, but based on your message, they don't seem to be your
>>> goals.
>>>> 3. Being blind in law school is like being blind anywhere else. You'll
>>> need the same auxiliary aids as you would need in grad school. The only
>>> real
>>> difference I found is that, if you're on journal, it can be interesting
>>> getting accommodations from 3L's (Third-year law students) while you're a
>>> 2L
>>> staff editor. I had to provide a crash course on the ADA to 3L's, who
>>> thought accommodations were a courtesy they could approve or deny at
>>> will.
>>> But I got through it just fine and am now practicing.
>>>> 4. Re: going through law school as a parent, I can't help much there
>>>> other
>>> than to advise finding other parents going through the same thing as you
>>> are. Most of your fellow students will be in their early 20's and still
>>> on
>>> Tinder. So find other older law students who took a "non-traditional"
>>> path.
>>> Though my wife and I do not have kids, my best friends in law school were
>>> other older students who took non-traditional paths. In fact, these
>>> friendships, in addition to my wife, kept me sane through what would have
>>> otherwise been a very frenetic three years.
>>>> I hope some of this is helpful, and I wish you nothing but the best!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:45 AM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw
>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>> Thank you Dr. Harpur.  While maybe not practical, your words ring true.
>>> No one can answer some of my deepest questions other than me, in the
>>> moment.
>>> Again, thank you so kindly for taking the time to write.
>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>
>>>>> Maura Kutnyak
>>>>> 716-563-9882
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:10 AM, Paul Harpur via BlindLaw
>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>> You never know if you can live your dream until you wake up and take
>>>>>> the
>>> plunge.  Go for it!
>>>>>> I am based in Australia but am also an International Distinguished
>>> Fellow at BBI at Syracuse University.  I will let others give more
>>> practical
>>> advice, but my e-mail is here to encourage you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dr Paul Harpur
>>>>>> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of
>>>>>> Australia (non-practicing) Fulbright Future Scholar/International
>>> Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York.
>>>>>> Senior Lecturer
>>>>>>
>>>>>> TC Beirne School of Law
>>>>>> The University of Queensland
>>>>>> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia
>>>>>>
>>>>>> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609
>>>>>> E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB Profile/Google Citation Page CRICOS
>>>>>> code: 00025B
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Scientia ac Labore
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for the
>>> addressee and may contain confidential information of The University of
>>> Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that any
>>> transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this email is
>>> prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete and
>>> notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions expressed in this email
>>> do
>>> not represent the official position of The University of Queensland.
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, 24 December 2018 11:05 PM
>>>>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak <maurakutnyak at gmail.com>
>>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello blind law participants,
>>>>>>   I am writing with more than a little hesitation and an equal amount
>>>>>> of
>>> interest.  If what follows would be better directed else where please
>>> point
>>> the way.
>>>>>>   I am a blind graduate student in Buffalo NY.  Under the influence of
>>>>>> a
>>> few converging forces, a slight interest in law school as a next step has
>>> grown to a nagging and exciting unshakable desire.  More than a few
>>> people
>>> who have offered consultation as I explore this option have pointed me to
>>> the collective knowledge of this email list.
>>>>>>   My questions range from broad ideas such as, How could I possibly
>>>>>> make
>>> my way through law school blind and a mother of three?  To, what kinds of
>>> supports will I need?  Most immediate is the question of which entrance
>>> test
>>> should I take?  I recently learned that The University at Buffalo law
>>> school
>>> started accepting the GRE in addition to the LSAT.  I did not have to
>>> take
>>> the GRE for the MPA program in which I am currently studying.  So, I am
>>> not
>>> sure which test is more friendly to the blind.
>>>>>>   I could go on and on.I will end soon. One additional question is,
>>>>>> are
>>> there any recent UB law graduates in this list?  hearing from someone who
>>> has spent time in that program may be a very helpful start.
>>>>>>   Thanks to anyone who took the time to read.  I have so many more
>>> questions but I do not want to clog anyones inbox Too much.  Again, if
>>> this
>>> line of inquiry would be best plumbed somewhere else don't hesitate to
>>> redirect.
>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak-Smalley
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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-- 
Kelby Carlson