[blindLaw] ABYY FineReader Stability with Jaws?

Gerard Sadlier gerard.sadlier at gmail.com
Mon Aug 5 19:31:30 UTC 2019 

Laura

There are no circumstances in which I would ask for extra time to
deliver a document due to IT related issues, short of my computer
actually failing. That is not what I previously suggested and frankly
I am surprised both by the tone and contents of your previous message.

Respectfully, in my previous email, I said that pdfs which are
deliberately created as image files cannot easily be read with a
screen reader and that Adobe cannot be criticized for that. As you may
be aware, law firms frequently create their pdfs as scanned image
files. There are a number of good reasons why this is done and indeed
I usually insist on having this done myself.

Short of asking Adobe to provide an OCR solution, I do not see what
they can do to render those files accessible.

To the extent that you may have read my previous remarks more broadly,
I'm afraid you simply mis-understood the point made.

I trust this clarifies my position.

Kind regards

Ger

On 8/5/19, Laura Wolk <laura.wolk at gmail.com> wrote:
> Correct.  Law does run on pdfs.  I previously worked at a very large
> law firm.  Our docs were well done, as were the docs with which we
> interacted from opposing counsel.  So adobe or the Chrome plug in gave
> me no problems.  Not so in my current position.  And Adobe and/or
> Vispero absolutely can be criticized for the problems that I have
> recently discovered and that others are raising.  As for having extra
> time over lunch and over night, I don't expect an employer to
> reasonably accomodate "i'd like to get this to you today as you asked,
> but indeed I must wait until I have extra time to convert the
> materials before I can get it to you.  How does tomorrow sound?"
>
>
>
> On 8/5/19, Laura Wolk <laura.wolk at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Additionally, if anyone else uses Jaws and goes through the conversion
>> process that Kelby describes to ultimately read the pdf in Adobe, does
>> Adobe behave any better with respect to randomly losing its place and
>> jumping around the file as you arrow up and down, not moving by
>> paragraph when the proper keystroke is pressed, etc?  I tried
>> converting one file and opening it in Adobe, but it behaved precisely
>> the same way as it did before.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Laura
>>
>> On 8/5/19, Laura Wolk <laura.wolk at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> I'm sorry for any confusion.  To be clear, I just want the answer to a
>>> very simple question:
>>>
>>> Does anyone use ABBYY FineReader to **read** not convert, pdfs.  Also,
>>> as I mentioned in my subject line that I am a Jaws user, not an NVDA
>>> user, I am only interested in that screenreader.
>>>
>>> The volume of pdfs per day that I need to access and the need for
>>> precision when referencing said files does not lend itself well to
>>> relying on converting to a different file type as a work-around.
>>> Besides which, I don't really have the time to sit around idly while
>>> mass file conversions take place.  Again, why have we not collectively
>>> stood up and demanded the ability to reliably and consistently access
>>> PDF files?  Who doesn't need to do this as a lawyer in 2019?  I was
>>> not a heavy PDF user until about a month ago because I was fortunate
>>> enough to have access to K1000, but it seems that many of us have been
>>> and have been experiencing these issues for quite some time.  At some
>>> point, someone needs to take the lead and try to initiate change.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Laura
>>>
>>> On 8/5/19, Gerard Sadlier via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>> Kelby
>>>>
>>>> Do you mind my asking why you convert files to a different type of
>>>> pdf, rather than say to a text file, a word document etc.
>>>>
>>>> Is this so that you can refer accurately to page numbers or is there
>>>> some other reason?
>>>>
>>>> Kind regards
>>>>
>>>> Ger
>>>>
>>>> On 8/5/19, Kelby Carlson via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>> Laura,
>>>>>
>>>>> Okay, here goes. i use NVDA, so some of the accessibility features
>>>>> might be slightly different. So, for example, I do not read PDFs in
>>>>> FineReader itself, but use Adobe after I have converted them. There
>>>>> are pretty easy ways to bulk convert within FineReader; from the main
>>>>> screen, just click on "convert to [whatever file format desired]" and
>>>>> then add files as necessary.
>>>>>
>>>>> You will want to go into FineReader's settings and make sure that
>>>>> tagging'bookmarking PDF files is checked, and that the OCR is set to
>>>>> "text and pictures only"--that way you will not have the original
>>>>> image embedded in the file, which will make it much larger.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is one important thing to be aware of, however. With some files,
>>>>> I have found that because of the tagging that FineReader does, when
>>>>> you open the converted file in Adobe, it will start you off on the
>>>>> last page instead of the first. There are two ways around this: either
>>>>> open the PDF file with FineReader's OCR editor, and when the OCR
>>>>> process has finished, save the file as a text-based PDF;
>>>>> alternatively, use "infer reading order from document" in Adobe's
>>>>> settings rather than tagged reading order. This does make converting
>>>>> PDFs in bulk trickier, unfortunately. I am trying to work with Abbyy
>>>>> on a fix, but so far they have not been helpful.
>>>>>
>>>>> Let me know if there are other questions.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 8/5/19, Gerard Sadlier via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>> Hello all
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I tend to use Nuance Omnipage to convert PDFS to text files and then
>>>>>> to read those files. This fast, reliable and effective.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The one draw back is that sometimes the page numbers can be lost, so
>>>>>> that one is not always sure what page of a document one is reading.
>>>>>> Any solution for that would be welcome. However, I am not sure that
>>>>>> when say Fine Reader converts a pdf to word the word document has
>>>>>> precisely the same page numbers as the pdf?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Comments on this welcome. I am following this discussion with
>>>>>> interest
>>>>>> and would be really grateful if people would post solutions to the
>>>>>> list.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kind regards
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ger
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 8/4/19, Amar Jain via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> RB-just when I read your observation, I was reminded of a feature
>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>> even
>>>>>>> allowed reading within Fine Reader itself. It was an important
>>>>>>> observation
>>>>>>> from your end which lead to me remembering a good old missed
>>>>>>> feature.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Let me try that out and let the group know tomorrow. Just ping me
>>>>>>> once
>>>>>>> please around noon time just so that it doesn’t slip from my mind.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>> AJ
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 04-Aug-2019, at 7:29 PM, Rahul Bajaj <rahul.bajaj1038 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Laura,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I use ABBYY as an instrument to convert PDFS into  word documents
>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> time. however, I suspect that you are envisaging its use to read
>>>>>>>> PDF
>>>>>>>> documents as such, as a substitute for adobe reader.  I have never
>>>>>>>> done
>>>>>>>> this yet. best,
>>>>>>>> Rahul
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Aug 3, 2019, at 5:45 PM, Amar Jain via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I do it on day to day basis. It is the best solution. You can call
>>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>> +91-9892622230 or email me (there may be little delay in
>>>>>>>>> responses).
>>>>>>>>> Or
>>>>>>>>> Whats App is also fine.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>> Amar Jain
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 03-Aug-2019, at 4:49 PM, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw
>>>>>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> All,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If anyone regularly uses ABYY FineReader instead of Adobe for
>>>>>>>>>> handling
>>>>>>>>>> PDFs, I would really appreciate being contacted offline.  Here's
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> skinny.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> My job is extremely PDF heavy,often with horribly tagged and
>>>>>>>>>> un-ocr'd
>>>>>>>>>> documents, which we have no way of controlling.  For years, I
>>>>>>>>>> rely
>>>>>>>>>> typically on K1000 as a work-around Adobe's finickiness with
>>>>>>>>>> Jaws.
>>>>>>>>>> Except that, for reasons we can't understand, K1000 will not
>>>>>>>>>> launch
>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>> my system.  We've been working diligently on this for three weeks
>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>> no success.  In the meantime, I've had to rely on Adobe pro,
>>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> reasons well rehashed, we all know is not a sustainable option.
>>>>>>>>>> (Note,
>>>>>>>>>> in my copious free time, ha! I have been trying to negotiate with
>>>>>>>>>> Vispero and Adobe on this).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The potentially good news is that I do also have access to ABBYY
>>>>>>>>>> FineReader.  I've heard people mention this in the past as a
>>>>>>>>>> substitute for K1000 or OpenBook, but not as a PDF reader.
>>>>>>>>>> Yesterday,
>>>>>>>>>> I tried loading a PDF in it, got some notice like "loading
>>>>>>>>>> scans,"
>>>>>>>>>> nothing happened after about a minute, and I panicked, basically
>>>>>>>>>> thinking "I don't have time to figure this out now, I need to get
>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>> done," and resorted back to Adobe.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So if anyone has success with this program and can charitably
>>>>>>>>>> donate
>>>>>>>>>> their time to me to give me a crash course instead of having me
>>>>>>>>>> self-teach and figure out if there's some settings I need to
>>>>>>>>>> tweak
>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>> whatever, I would be ever so grateful.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> thanks much,
>>>>>>>>>> Laura
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>> for
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Kelby Carlson
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>
>

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