[blindLaw] JAWS Loosing its Place when Reading PDF's in Acrobat

Tue Aug 6 17:54:09 UTC 2019

I'm sad to report that I am still having Jaws jump around, and I'm not
getting any "lost focus" errors.  But this is still good info to pass
along!

On 8/6/19, Laura Wolk <laura.wolk at gmail.com> wrote:
> Steve, this is brilliant!  I will try this right away when I get to
> work and get back to you with results.  Thanks for the great idea!
>
> On 8/5/19, Steve Jacobson via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> Laura,
>>
>> I am suspicious that what is happening for you is that JAWS is loosing
>> focus
>> when you are reading a document and that it is loosing its place in the
>> virtual buffer containing the text within the PDF document.  JAWS seems
>> to
>> be having a lot of trouble these days maintaining focus.  It is partly a
>> bigger issue now because of the various types of notifications provided
>> by
>> Windows 10.  Although many of us have often heard the "Focus Lost"
>> announcement, that can be turned off for specific applications.  To
>> determine if my guess holds any water at all, open up a PDF document.
>> When
>> it is open, bring up the quick settings menu with JAWSKey and the letter
>> "V".  Then, press the letter f by itself multiple times until you hear
>> "Focus Lost Announcement".  If that box is unchecked as it is in my case
>> with Acrobat-DC running, you will not hear any announcements that focus
>> was
>> lost.  If you check that setting, then you should actually hear that
>> focus
>> was lost.  This will not fix the problem and it could quickly get very
>> annoying, but it might allow you to determine if the issue of JAWS
>> loosing
>> its place is due to the "Focus Lost" issue.
>>
>> If it turns out that this is at least part of the issue, then you can go
>> to
>> Vispero with a specific question like "How can I avoid loosing focus in
>> Acrobat-DC".  Also, it would seem reasonable for JAWS to maintain its
>> location on the virtual buffer through a lost focus event.
>>
>> There was a time when JAWS would tend to loose its place on web pages if
>> one
>> jumped to another application and back.  There might be some variation of
>> this still happening within PDF documents since they also make use of the
>> virtual buffer.
>>
>> If this is the issue, it is also possible that something is happening
>> inside
>> the adobe product that is momentarily confusing JAWS just long enough to
>> cause it to loose its place.  That might well be an Adobe issue.  However,
>> I
>> think Vispero will have to help isolate that since Adobe doing something
>> like that won't be apparent to the person reading the PDF document in all
>> likelihood.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Steve Jacobson
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via
>> BlindLaw
>> Sent: Monday, August 5, 2019 4:38 PM
>> To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Laura Wolk <laura.wolk at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [blindLaw] ABYY FineReader Stability with Jaws?
>>
>> Why shouldn't we insist on Adobe creating a better OCR solution?  Also,
>> the
>> issues being raised have to do with Jaws losing focus, inexplicably
>> jumping around the document, and not navigating properly as you scan
>> by paragraph or line.  Unless i'm mistaken, that has nothing to do
>> with OCR capability.  And if it does, then it only highlights that the
>> solutions provided by Jaws and Adobe are inadequate for the task,
>> since people are using these functions and still getting rather paltry
>> results.  It also doesn't make sense, given that people have reported
>> a marked downturn in Adobe's performance as of late with Jaws.  So
>> perhaps the issue is we're simply discussing two different things.
>>
>> As for my previous email, thank you for bringing your interpretation
>> of it to my attention.  However, I've reread it, and I don't think
>> there is anything disrespectful about its tone, except perhaps that I
>> didn't give exact concrete data about how many files I'm dealing with
>> and how frequently assignments are given and expected back the same
>> day.  The suggested overnight solution is just not viable.  And I
>> don't think it would be viable in many competitive high-paced working
>> environments.   (Again, I am in no way commenting on your own personal
>> working environment.  I'm making a general statement based on the
>> general proposition that, oftentimes in high-paced environments,
>> associates are given hours not a full business day or overnight to
>> complete a task, and these minutes add up).  I hope that clarifies my
>> point.
>>
>> Angie, I do get your point, and thank you.  My point is, if you take
>> those minutes, let's just say even five minutes per document, or even
>> 3, and then say you have to review twenty files.  Those minutes add up
>> quite quickly.  Just like the track change issue.  Sure, if you've got
>> ten to review, no big deal.  When you're talking about 600 changes, it
>> matters
>> a whole lot more.  So I completely hear you, but just like at some
>> point the "a little extra time" approach to track changes veers into
>> "I can't actually or I am severely struggling to complete my duties"
>> territory, so too with converting pdfs.  And again, my main point
>> doesn't even have to do with converting.  It has to do with the fact
>> that I have a pdf that Adobe is reading just fine.  It's not
>> presenting as blank or empty.  But in the course of reading, Jaws
>> becomes frenetic and starts jumping all over the document.  This
>> happens with multiple documents, and others have stated they
>> experience the same.  It seems like there must be a solution to this
>> that does not involve saving to another doc type (since Adobe seems
>> able to read it), but only involves stabilizing Adobe and Jaws.
>>
>> For that reason, I'm still interested in your and Ger's experience
>> using Nuance to batch
>> convert.  Did you or do you have the issue of Jaws jumping around when
>> you do not use Nuance to first convert the pdf to another pdf?  Does
>> Adobe appear more stable when you're using a nuance-converted pdf?
>> Ger, it sounds like you are not having the issues that I am
>> describing.  So if you are using Nuance to ocr and tag documents and
>> those documents are then stable in Adobe, that would be a wonderful
>> and welcome development!
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Laura
>>
>>
>>
>> On 8/5/19, Gerard Sadlier via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> Angie’s comments are well made. I would only add that if the document
>>> contains paragraph numbers those are a good and reliable reference
>>>
>>> On Mon 5 Aug 2019 at 20:52 Angela Matney via BlindLaw
>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Laura, one quick observation: Without addressing the need for precision
>>>> when, say, referring to line numbers or making other references to the
>>>> PDFs
>>>> that are required for your job, I just want to add that converting
>>>> files
>>>> to
>>>> another format may not take the amount of time one might expect,
>>>> particularly if you use a mainstream solution. I don’t know how long it
>>>> takes Kurzweil to convert a PDF because I don’t use that product. In
>>>> the
>>>> past, I’ve used Abbyy Finereader; nowadays, I use Nuance Power PDF.
>>>> Each
>>>> of
>>>> these can OCR a file of several hundred pages in a matter of minutes
>>>> and
>>>> give good results, barring handwriting or other unusual attributes of
>>>> the
>>>> file. I’m in no way saying that we don’t need a better way to access
>>>> PDF
>>>> files directly; I’m just suggesting that converting a PDF to Word or
>>>> another format of choice isn’t necessarily a process that takes hours
>>>> and
>>>> hours.
>>>>
>>>> Having said this, it’s certainly true that if you have many, many
>>>> files,
>>>> there will be a good amount of time involved. This has happened to me
>>>> before (involving due diligence for a merger and documents from the
>>>> other
>>>> side’s data room). But I’m not sure that the method I used ultimately
>>>> took
>>>> more time than I would have spent performing OCR on the PDFs, which
>>>> would
>>>> have had to be done in any case because they were images.
>>>>
>>>> I can’t comment on using any of these applications to read PDFs
>>>> directly.
>>>> In my mind, converting files to another format is analogous to printing
>>>> vs
>>>> reading the PDF on-screen, and while it’s not perfect, it generally
>>>> works
>>>> for my purposes.
>>>>
>>>> I hope you’re able to find a solution quickly.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Angie
>>>>
>>>> Angela Matney, CIPP/US
>>>> Attorney at Law
>>>> [Loeb & Loeb
>>>> LLP]<https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.loeb.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C35dfc2f479984ab262cf08d719ed72db%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637006379927625333&sdata=%2FPHXcR0hDOTY%2BGZt01nMItJWTi1IRXDWGEeUaMy4wOY%3D&reserved=0>
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