[blindLaw] Discrimination

Thu Sep 26 01:32:34 UTC 2019

Laura

Is absolutely right below. What we have to realise is that most
clients are, sadly, in no position to evaluate the quality of their
lawyers' work/advice. They often judge, to some extent, based on the
presentation of your work and that presentation is visual.

The only time I ever had an issue about something I produced at work,
it was not the content of the email but its formatting that was in
issue. I hate to admit it but those who made a point about that were
doing me a big favour.

Laura, I'd be very grateful for any more tips on formatting etc. I'd
be interested in your various anicdotes, the cogency of which I don't
doubt but they are not directly relevant to me in my jurisdiction and
at my stage of practice.

Through pure look and the help of some pretty enlightened people in
the profession, my own experience has been very different to those
described here but I have to say I am saddened but not altogether
surprised by what is described here.

Kind regards

Ger

On 9/24/19, Laura Wolk via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Meredith, I am so shocked and sorry that someone asked you that in an
> interview.  Sanho and others, I'm happy to speak about this off list
> to share my tips and tricks for how I navigated potential
> discrimination.
>
> But if there's one dead horse I'll keep beating over and over again,
> it's that we as a community need to be prepping blind lawyers to be
> able to present the best work from a **purely visual** point of view
> as well as in substance.  And I don't think we do this or focus on
> this nearly enough.  I readily acknowledge that a lot of legal
> formatting/writing is silly and formalistic, but I'm also not
> surprised when a sloppy visual appearance of work is used as a proxy
> for how good the employee will b.  I'm also not terribly surprised
> when employers don't know if a person who is good at taking law school
> exams will also be good at the additional things that a law associate
> is also expected to do in addition to his substantive work.  Compile
> excerpts of record.  Read handwritten filings.  Cite check.  Proofread
> and catch every single little thing that is out of place or every time
> a partner mistypes something.  Yes, we can clearly do all of these
> things, barring accessibility barriers beyond our control.  But the
> point is that being a baby lawyer is about a heck of a lot more than
> writing substantive briefs or standing up and arguing in court, and
> those skills aren't going to be attested to by one's law school
> grades.  And we just need to accept that as reality and figure out
> ways to anticipate and address it.  Because if a hiring partner
> doesn't think an applicant is able to do all of those other things
> that have nothing to do with legal reasoning, then it's not altogether
> unreasonable to opt not to hire that person.  Our job is to show them
> through example and education that those beliefs are false.  I firmly
> believe it is this set of skills, not whether a person can handle
> depos, that is subconsciously in the back of the minds of people doing
> the hiring.  Again, I'm not willing to divulge more on a public list,
> but this firm belief comes from incredibly candid conversations I've
> had along the way with folks who are very much in a position to know.
>
> I once again suggest that NABL hold a workshop.  How to bluebook
> (note, this is different from "how to learn how to bluebook."  You
> might think you're doing it right, only to find out that you're not at
> all and someone at your workplace has been following behind after you
> and fixing your mistakes.  This happens, trust me.  Other agenda items
> might include "Common formatting errors ."  Do you 1. Know the
> difference between a straight and smart quote/apostrophe? 2. Know how
> to check the spacing after each line in a document and make sure it's
> uniform? 3. Know that any changes you make above the line such as
> justification, font change, etc, will not also be reflected in
> footnotes unless you go into the footnote pane and implement the same
> changes?  4. know about things like non-breaking hyphens and
> widow/orphan spacing and know why they're used and when to use them?
> I'm sure some of us know the answers to these example questions, but
> many, many people do not.  I believe so sincerely, after talking to
> everyone from professors to judges to law partners at big firms to
> lawyer friends, that this is the biggest thing we can do to make
> others comfortable with the quality of our work and comfortable hiring
> us.  I could not have my current job, or many others that I've taken,
> without these skills.
>
> End rant, and back to work I go.
>
> Laura
>
>
> On 9/24/19, Meredith Ballard via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> James,
>>
>> I think you summed it up perfectly with performance in law school being
>> seen
>> as a parlor trick. Despite the fact that I had a degree and a license, I
>> was
>> asked in a job interview how I got those things if I can’t read a physical
>> book. They seemed to be under the impression that someone must have helped
>> me with all my schooling.
>>
>> I have noticed a big difference in how I am treated by other attorneys
>> when
>> they find out I have my own firm versus how I was treated when I was first
>> out of school and looking for a job. When you work for yourself other
>> attorneys see you as someone they can potentially work with and it is
>> easier
>> to make connections.
>>
>> Discrimination in the hiring process is more intense than I thought it
>> would
>> be before entering the profession.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Meredith Ballard
>>
>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw
>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> James, your candor is both refreshing and stimulus for heart break.
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>>
>>> Maura Kutnyak
>>> 716-563-9882 <tel:716-563-9882>
>>>
>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:37 PM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw
>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org <mailto:blindlaw at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I recently heard from a friend of mine--also blind, also an attorney,
>>>> practicing for quite some time now--that many employers pretty much look
>>>> at a blind person's success in law school as a "parlor trick" and not an
>>>> indication of your ability to thrive in practice. I think he's right,
>>>> and
>>>> it makes a great deal of sense in light of my experience. Too many
>>>> employers do not equate doing well in law school, which is still
>>>> extremely important by the way, with all the things that law school
>>>> doesn't prepare you for: taking depositions, handling contentious
>>>> meetings with opposing counsel, reviewing documents, and, of course,
>>>> handling evidence with any kind of visual aspect to it. You almost have
>>>> to prove that you can do all of these things before being?? seen as
>>>> potentially able to do them in practice. I understand that things are
>>>> somewhat less grim for people who have clerkships. I will soon find out
>>>> if this is true in my own case. I also don't know if the same fears
>>>> cloud
>>>> employers' judgments in a transactional or compliance?? setting, given
>>>> the nature of the work. So, be prepared for a lot of rejection, but
>>>> still
>>>> be the best possible candidate, so that you can be competitive for
>>>> opportunities that can act as a bridge to a long-term, full-time
>>>> position.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 9/24/2019 11:42 AM, Cody Davis via BlindLaw wrote:
>>>>> Remarkably discriminatory. Far more so than my naive self thought when
>>>>> I
>>>>> was first licensed.
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Sanho Steele-Louchart via BlindLaw
>>>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Good morning. How discriminatory have you found hiring practices so
>>>>>> far? Messages are welcome on or off-list.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Warmth,
>>>>>> Sanho
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
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