[Blindmath] Introduction

Fri Nov 6 11:22:49 UTC 2009

The problem is with both the syntax and tools for producing 
mathML.  MathML makes a mockery of one of the fundamental principles 
of XML, that is, the separation of content semantics an the visual 
presentation.  We could start a long and arduous debate over that , 
however, I should think that the lack of accessible and usable 
software tools for mathML is a more pressing issue. It is indeed true 
that very few people nowadays bother to hack html or xhtml manually. 
Instead they use one of the hundreds of WYSEEWYG tools for the task. 
That, as I see it, takes the argument back to our original problem, 
i.e. finding accessible tools: how many of those web authoring tools 
are screen reader friendly? And even if they were accessible, how 
many of them map user input to valid strict or transitional 
xhtml?  Very few and the reason for that is because web content at 
present is more about the visual presentation and not structure 
semantics, the constant abuse of the table element being a case in 
point. Incidentally, folks, that problem has been partially addressed by CSS.
With mathML, as far as I understand it, you can't afford to take such 
a cavalier approach while maintaining the integrity of your code. 
Granted, there are tools for creating valid mathML documents, but are 
they accessible?
As for the online wiki thingummy, while it offers a solution to the 
immediate problem, would it not be more productive, in the long term, 
to learn using a system that is universally recognised and 
extensively used by academics and publishers alike?
Perhaps on a superficial level, do you not think there's some thrill 
in creating documents that look no less presentable than what one 
would see in a published book or journal?
LaTeX offers both 100 percent accessibility and high quality output 
standards. This is about the present and the future. LaTeX offers a 
solution which is inclusive and convenient especially in higher 
education. At Uni My tutors all typset their module handouts in LaTeX 
which meant that we did not need to go through the usual headache of 
the transcription process, not to mention the high costs involved.
I don't see academic institutions rushing to embrace a new system 
when the current one works just fine. Why fix it when it 'aint ...

MathML seems to be a nice idea, just like the electric car, that 
showcases progress though right this minute it fails to offer a 
viable alternative. Whether it will be adopted by mainstream 
institutions some time in the future isn't the concern of most people 
who come to this list for help. What's more, it is our moral duty as 
blind people to transcend personal commercial interests when giving 
them advice.
Paul

At 00:31 06/11/2009, you wrote:
>Good points about the verbosity of mathml but is the problem the 
>format or the lack of tools.
>
>As an example I would say that most people would not tend to write 
>HTML source now but would generally use a tool to generate it, 
>that's why there are the various languages used for wikis and such 
>like (markdown, RST, etc). As there are so many tools to handle HTML 
>(from generation to reading) people don't seem to have a problem with it.
>
>In the same way I would say if we had the correct tools for mathml 
>then the verbosity wouldn't be a problem. Out of interest have you 
>looked at instiki? I know it doesn't solve the problem of creating a 
>full report which might be suitable for printing, but it does show 
>how maths can be put on the web using mathml but not needing the 
>author to know or deal directly with mathml.
>
>I would also say that in the help information in instiki about itex 
>it makes some interesting points, eg. the LaTeX source $pin$ and $p 
>i n$ are the same in TeX but itex converts them to different mathml, 
>one being a single item "pin" and the other being three items "p", "i" and "n".
>
>So I feel our current problem with mathml is to do with the tools to 
>deal with it not the format. Since liblouisxml has started to have 
>UK Braille maths support my interest has started up again on mathml, 
>I feel Braille is better for reading maths (compared to speech 
>output) and also on linux I think liblouisxml is possibly the only 
>accessible tool to read mathml (firefox could do with mathml 
>accessibility, even if it was to the fairly basic output to screen 
>readers used in mathplayer).
>
>Michael Whapples
>On 05/11/09 17:39, P. R. Stanley wrote:
>>in the words of a good friend, the main problem with MathML is the 
>>syntax. To generate it, you either need to use a GUI editor, which 
>>is bound to be inefficient compared with typing a textual 
>>representation of the mathematical expressions, not to mention 
>>accessibility issues, or convert another format such as TeX to MathML.
>>The syntax is simply too verbose to be typed directly with any 
>>degree of convenience. Obviously, to read it one needs a converter 
>>of some kind - a MathML renderer.
>>
>>Paul
>>
>>At 21:52 03/11/2009, you wrote:
>>>Hello Andrew. This list fielded basically the same question just a 
>>>few days ago. My advice then was MathML, the math language of the 
>>>future and accessible at least in Internet Explorer with 
>>>MathPlayer. And also accessible by translating the XML source in 
>>>the free braille translator ap called liblouis.
>>>
>>>You will hear from others about Latex, which is still very widely 
>>>used, as you know. It is possible to display math images with 
>>>Latex ALT attributes, and in general these are accessible. If one 
>>>can read the text normally and only have equations in Latex, 
>>>things read relatively easily. Latex equations are almost obvious, 
>>>and it's easy enough to look up the occasional symbol that isn't. 
>>>Still my strong advice is go for the future and use MathML.
>>>
>>>You'll also need to make images accessible. Use DAISY SVG! The big 
>>>problem with both MathML and SVG is that Internet Explorer doesn't 
>>>support them. FireFox does, but IE and some others do not, so 
>>>MathML and SVG still aren't that widely used. There is an elegant 
>>>way to be all things to all people, using MathML and SVG for 
>>>clients that use them and images for those that don't. I'm happy 
>>>to discuss it with you, but it's probably beyond the tolerable 
>>>limits of this list to discuss such details here.
>>>
>>>FYI most people on this know that in addition to being Oregon 
>>>State Emeritus faculty, I am founder of ViewPlus, which makes the 
>>>cool software you need for some of these things. Full disclosure.
>>>
>>>John Gardner
>>>Professor of Physics Emeritus
>>>Oregon State U:niversity
>>>
>>>On 11/3/2009 12:12 PM, Andrew Stacey wrote:
>>>>Dear Blindmath Community,
>>>>
>>>>I've just joined your mailing list, and would like to bombard you with some
>>>>questions, so thought I should introduce myself first. I learnt about your
>>>>list from Michael Whapples, via a comment on Terrence Tao's blog about
>>>>displaying mathematics on the web (I believe that he has mentioned this
>>>>discussion in a comment on this list before I joined).
>>>>
>>>>I am a mathematician, currently living in Norway. I am particularly
>>>>interested in using technology to make my (i.e. a 
>>>>mathematician's) job easier.
>>>>One part of this is in using technology to improve our communication of
>>>>mathematics, both to other mathematicians and to the wider community. In
>>>>particular, I am one of the team behind the n-lab project
>>>>(http://ncatlab.org/nlab) which is a sort of "open lab book" for
>>>>mathematicians (and a few others).
>>>>
>>>>This brings up the issue of accessibility. In making our mathematics
>>>>available, we need to think about how our audience will access 
>>>>it. It's very
>>>>easy to design a website that looks alright to me, but that's no guarantee
>>>>that it will be accessible to all. So I was pleased to learn of this list
>>>>from Michael and would love to learn from you, in particular get 
>>>>some guidance
>>>>on how best to make a website accessible to partially sighted and 
>>>>blind users.
>>>>
>>>>This issue has recently taken on a more personal note for me as none of my
>>>>children have perfect vision. I don't think that any would qualify as
>>>>partially sighted: the one with the worst vision should still be 
>>>>able to drive
>>>>a car when he's older, but it has made me think a little more 
>>>>about how much
>>>>they will be able to use a computer, especially given how much an integral
>>>>part of our lives computers now are.
>>>>
>>>>As I said, I shall shortly be bombarding you with questions - I 
>>>>hope you don't
>>>>mind this - but thought it polite to provide a little background 
>>>>as to why I'm
>>>>asking them first.
>>>>
>>>>Andrew Stacey
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
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>
>
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