[Blindmath] Introduction
Michael Whapples
mwhapples at aim.com
Fri Nov 6 23:06:56 UTC 2009
I did mention a few tools for producing HTML code which are not GUI ways
(admittedly I did put them in a wiki context and possibly should have
pointed them out a bit clearer).
Have a look at restructure text (RST)
http://docutils.sourceforge.net/rst.html (an example of where it is used
seriously is the python programming language's documentation) and
markdown (haven't got a link to hand, used in wikis and for more
advanced HTML it lets you just break into HTML). I am sure there are others.
If we move back to maths, then as I mentioned there is itex2mml and
combined with markdown (as done in instiki) it looks a fairly reasonable
way of entering maths. I am recognising that may be this has
limitations, but may be it could be improved.
Also as many know LaTeX then it probably will stay as an authoring tool
for some time (LaTeX probably would be the way I would choose to author
maths), but as with sighted people some would prefer it in a more
natural form (I would prefer Braille). So may be we need to give
feedback to those working on LaTeX to mathml conversion systems.
Possibly to achieve accurate conversion of LaTeX to mathml we might need
to impose a few restrictions on how LaTeX should be written.
Will mathml replace LaTeX, probably not, they do different things, try
and get the two to work together.
Michael Whapples
On 06/11/09 11:22, P. R. Stanley wrote:
> The problem is with both the syntax and tools for producing mathML.
> MathML makes a mockery of one of the fundamental principles of XML,
> that is, the separation of content semantics an the visual
> presentation. We could start a long and arduous debate over that ,
> however, I should think that the lack of accessible and usable
> software tools for mathML is a more pressing issue. It is indeed true
> that very few people nowadays bother to hack html or xhtml manually.
> Instead they use one of the hundreds of WYSEEWYG tools for the task.
> That, as I see it, takes the argument back to our original problem,
> i.e. finding accessible tools: how many of those web authoring tools
> are screen reader friendly? And even if they were accessible, how many
> of them map user input to valid strict or transitional xhtml? Very
> few and the reason for that is because web content at present is more
> about the visual presentation and not structure semantics, the
> constant abuse of the table element being a case in point.
> Incidentally, folks, that problem has been partially addressed by CSS.
> With mathML, as far as I understand it, you can't afford to take such
> a cavalier approach while maintaining the integrity of your code.
> Granted, there are tools for creating valid mathML documents, but are
> they accessible?
> As for the online wiki thingummy, while it offers a solution to the
> immediate problem, would it not be more productive, in the long term,
> to learn using a system that is universally recognised and extensively
> used by academics and publishers alike?
> Perhaps on a superficial level, do you not think there's some thrill
> in creating documents that look no less presentable than what one
> would see in a published book or journal?
> LaTeX offers both 100 percent accessibility and high quality output
> standards. This is about the present and the future. LaTeX offers a
> solution which is inclusive and convenient especially in higher
> education. At Uni My tutors all typset their module handouts in LaTeX
> which meant that we did not need to go through the usual headache of
> the transcription process, not to mention the high costs involved.
> I don't see academic institutions rushing to embrace a new system when
> the current one works just fine. Why fix it when it 'aint ...
>
> MathML seems to be a nice idea, just like the electric car, that
> showcases progress though right this minute it fails to offer a viable
> alternative. Whether it will be adopted by mainstream institutions
> some time in the future isn't the concern of most people who come to
> this list for help. What's more, it is our moral duty as blind people
> to transcend personal commercial interests when giving them advice.
> Paul
>
> At 00:31 06/11/2009, you wrote:
>> Good points about the verbosity of mathml but is the problem the
>> format or the lack of tools.
>>
>> As an example I would say that most people would not tend to write
>> HTML source now but would generally use a tool to generate it, that's
>> why there are the various languages used for wikis and such like
>> (markdown, RST, etc). As there are so many tools to handle HTML (from
>> generation to reading) people don't seem to have a problem with it.
>>
>> In the same way I would say if we had the correct tools for mathml
>> then the verbosity wouldn't be a problem. Out of interest have you
>> looked at instiki? I know it doesn't solve the problem of creating a
>> full report which might be suitable for printing, but it does show
>> how maths can be put on the web using mathml but not needing the
>> author to know or deal directly with mathml.
>>
>> I would also say that in the help information in instiki about itex
>> it makes some interesting points, eg. the LaTeX source $pin$ and $p i
>> n$ are the same in TeX but itex converts them to different mathml,
>> one being a single item "pin" and the other being three items "p",
>> "i" and "n".
>>
>> So I feel our current problem with mathml is to do with the tools to
>> deal with it not the format. Since liblouisxml has started to have UK
>> Braille maths support my interest has started up again on mathml, I
>> feel Braille is better for reading maths (compared to speech output)
>> and also on linux I think liblouisxml is possibly the only accessible
>> tool to read mathml (firefox could do with mathml accessibility, even
>> if it was to the fairly basic output to screen readers used in
>> mathplayer).
>>
>> Michael Whapples
>> On 05/11/09 17:39, P. R. Stanley wrote:
>>> in the words of a good friend, the main problem with MathML is the
>>> syntax. To generate it, you either need to use a GUI editor, which
>>> is bound to be inefficient compared with typing a textual
>>> representation of the mathematical expressions, not to mention
>>> accessibility issues, or convert another format such as TeX to MathML.
>>> The syntax is simply too verbose to be typed directly with any
>>> degree of convenience. Obviously, to read it one needs a converter
>>> of some kind - a MathML renderer.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>> At 21:52 03/11/2009, you wrote:
>>>> Hello Andrew. This list fielded basically the same question just a
>>>> few days ago. My advice then was MathML, the math language of the
>>>> future and accessible at least in Internet Explorer with
>>>> MathPlayer. And also accessible by translating the XML source in
>>>> the free braille translator ap called liblouis.
>>>>
>>>> You will hear from others about Latex, which is still very widely
>>>> used, as you know. It is possible to display math images with Latex
>>>> ALT attributes, and in general these are accessible. If one can
>>>> read the text normally and only have equations in Latex, things
>>>> read relatively easily. Latex equations are almost obvious, and
>>>> it's easy enough to look up the occasional symbol that isn't. Still
>>>> my strong advice is go for the future and use MathML.
>>>>
>>>> You'll also need to make images accessible. Use DAISY SVG! The big
>>>> problem with both MathML and SVG is that Internet Explorer doesn't
>>>> support them. FireFox does, but IE and some others do not, so
>>>> MathML and SVG still aren't that widely used. There is an elegant
>>>> way to be all things to all people, using MathML and SVG for
>>>> clients that use them and images for those that don't. I'm happy to
>>>> discuss it with you, but it's probably beyond the tolerable limits
>>>> of this list to discuss such details here.
>>>>
>>>> FYI most people on this know that in addition to being Oregon State
>>>> Emeritus faculty, I am founder of ViewPlus, which makes the cool
>>>> software you need for some of these things. Full disclosure.
>>>>
>>>> John Gardner
>>>> Professor of Physics Emeritus
>>>> Oregon State U:niversity
>>>>
>>>> On 11/3/2009 12:12 PM, Andrew Stacey wrote:
>>>>> Dear Blindmath Community,
>>>>>
>>>>> I've just joined your mailing list, and would like to bombard you
>>>>> with some
>>>>> questions, so thought I should introduce myself first. I learnt
>>>>> about your
>>>>> list from Michael Whapples, via a comment on Terrence Tao's blog
>>>>> about
>>>>> displaying mathematics on the web (I believe that he has mentioned
>>>>> this
>>>>> discussion in a comment on this list before I joined).
>>>>>
>>>>> I am a mathematician, currently living in Norway. I am particularly
>>>>> interested in using technology to make my (i.e. a mathematician's)
>>>>> job easier.
>>>>> One part of this is in using technology to improve our
>>>>> communication of
>>>>> mathematics, both to other mathematicians and to the wider
>>>>> community. In
>>>>> particular, I am one of the team behind the n-lab project
>>>>> (http://ncatlab.org/nlab) which is a sort of "open lab book" for
>>>>> mathematicians (and a few others).
>>>>>
>>>>> This brings up the issue of accessibility. In making our mathematics
>>>>> available, we need to think about how our audience will access it.
>>>>> It's very
>>>>> easy to design a website that looks alright to me, but that's no
>>>>> guarantee
>>>>> that it will be accessible to all. So I was pleased to learn of
>>>>> this list
>>>>> from Michael and would love to learn from you, in particular get
>>>>> some guidance
>>>>> on how best to make a website accessible to partially sighted and
>>>>> blind users.
>>>>>
>>>>> This issue has recently taken on a more personal note for me as
>>>>> none of my
>>>>> children have perfect vision. I don't think that any would qualify as
>>>>> partially sighted: the one with the worst vision should still be
>>>>> able to drive
>>>>> a car when he's older, but it has made me think a little more
>>>>> about how much
>>>>> they will be able to use a computer, especially given how much an
>>>>> integral
>>>>> part of our lives computers now are.
>>>>>
>>>>> As I said, I shall shortly be bombarding you with questions - I
>>>>> hope you don't
>>>>> mind this - but thought it polite to provide a little background
>>>>> as to why I'm
>>>>> asking them first.
>>>>>
>>>>> Andrew Stacey
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
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>>
>>
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