[Blindmath] mathplayer, jaws, and math in graphics?

Thu Apr 7 00:10:54 UTC 2011

May I suggest that we drop it and focus on more important things.  I
understand this is a point of contention but kindly ask that we just move
forward.  Disagreeing is one thing but turning this into what it has become
only tarnishes us.  

I am glad that we are in a free country where we can express our
differences.  However, I am not in agreement with turning issues into
personal attacks.  I point at no one as I am just answering the thread.

This list is both controversial and helpful at times.  Hopefully, we are
able to move forward in a positive manner.  Obvioysly, this is what our
freedom gives us the ability to do; rant and rave about what we feel
strongly about.  Let's not forget that, while we are discussing our
differences, we should still remember to to respect one another.  IF that
can't be accomplished, it is best that the list be abandoned.

I, for one, am thankful that I have this group to be able to answer the many
questions I have had since I returned to work on my CS degree.  At times, it
has been quite interesting but I have gotten many positives out of being a
member of this list.

Respectfully,
Jose Tamayo 

-----Original Message-----
From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of PR Stanley
Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 1:55 PM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
Subject: Re: [Blindmath] mathplayer, jaws, and math in graphics?

"and instead accept other people's oppinions "
Oh, so only other people's opinions matter here?
doublestadnards, I wouldn't expect any less than that from a coward.
"we'd all appreciate it "

So you now speak on everyone's behalf?
Well, let us put this to test.
Let's have a virtual showup of hands
who wants me to stay
who wants me to go?
I've been on this list for nearly 7 years, if not longer. During my time
here I have done all within my means to help people, however, I won't
hesitate to leave this list if that is the wish of the majority as this
pondlife seem to be implying.

At 18:06 06/04/2011, you wrote:
>If you would please refrain from wasting our time by ranting like a 
>lunatic and instead accept other people's oppinions as being viable I 
>think we'd all appreciate it Paul.
>
>On 4/6/11, PR Stanley <prstanley at ntlworld.com> wrote:
> > Funny, when I asked for his help last time a certain list member 
> > sought to deliberately blacken my name on this list, I didn't' even 
> > get a reply to my email. Now he is lecturing us on list protocol.
> > I get it in the neck for helping the blind community, for simply 
> > trying to share with them ideas that have helped me gain some level 
> > of independence.. I see it as a sort of moral duty.
> > unfortunately, It seems some members of the blind community are more 
> > than happy being exploited and treated like fools. Oh yes, they talk 
> > about independence and all that rot, but when they're offered the 
> > choice, they reject it violently and run back to their slave masters.
> > They seem only to accept help when it comes with a price tag 
> > attached to it. When the same help is offered to them for free they 
> > treat it with utmost suspicion.
> > I am no psychologist but I wonder if this could have something to do 
> > with disabled people being treated like second class citizens since 
> > time immemorial.
> > Well, don't use LaTeX then. Far too many punctuation marks and 
> > strangely named macros, far too complicated for blind people. your 
> > time would be much more fruitfully spent jumping up and down and 
> > shouting yourself horse about the injustice of not having a system 
> > simple enough for the blind.
> > Paul
> > At 02:11 06/04/2011, you wrote:
> >>Hello everybody:
> >>
> >>I am not a mathematician -- just the lowly list owner.  There has 
> >>been some back and forth here, healthy discussion is, of course 
> >>fine.  However, some has seemed a bit more heated then that.
> >>
> >>I would remind people of a couple things, first we all have 
> >>different styles, preferences, etc., so what appeals to you, or 
> >>makes sense to you may not be so for somebody else.  Some people's 
> >>positions come across as absolute, and that there is just one way to 
> >>do things.  Remember, this is true for you, but may not be so for 
> >>everybody else.
> >>
> >>It is good that we have options and each of us must pick what works 
> >>best for him/herself.
> >>
> >>David Andrews, List Owner
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>At 07:48 PM 4/5/2011, you wrote:
> >>>    I feel that Andrew's comments have been interpreted very poorly 
> >>>by members of this list.  Firstly, consider that he is on this 
> >>>list, as all of us are, to increase the use and readability of math 
> >>>for the blind.  I'm certain that he would not be doing what he can 
> >>>to benefit the movement from the perspective that blind people are 
> >>>lesser and should sit and do what they're told.  Such comments are 
> >>>not only rude, but entirely unhelpful.
> >>>    In a well reasoned and well worded argument, it was pointed out 
> >>>that LaTeX is simply inefficient to read.  It is.  With a screen 
> >>>reader the barrage of punctuation is difficult to sort out and in 
> >>>braille there's often an expantion of symbols into words for 
> >>>punctuation marks which only increases the size of the math needing 
> >>>to be represented.  There are more efficient ways that are a good 
> >>>deal more intuitive to people.  Pointing that out is both sensable 
> >>>and a call for the blind to demand more.  It should not be the case 
> >>>where we accept what the sighted would not when it prevents a large 
> >>>portion of our community from accessing math simply.  As a college 
> >>>student learning mathematics it is not pleasurable or even possible 
> >>>in some cases to add learning LaTeX to a scholastic course load.
> >>>    Just because something is possible does not mean it is 
> >>>efficient and if there are better ways for your average blind 
> >>>individual to read math we need to explore them  rather than 
> >>>attacking those who make such valid points.
> >>>
> >>>Sincerely,
> >>>    Ryan Thomas
> >>>
> >>>On 4/4/11, Joseph C. Lininger <jbahm at pcdesk.net> wrote:
> >>> > I agree with Paul 100% on this one. I use LaTeX for pretty much 
> >>> > everything now. Class notes, homework and exams, professional 
> >>> > papers and other writings, etc. I even use it when working math 
> >>> > problems to keep track of what I'm doing. I present material in 
> >>> > hard and/or soft copy by converting to pdf and/or providing 
> >>> > LaTeX source depending on the preference of the group or 
> >>> > individual, and they're always perfectly happy with the results. 
> >>> > I ask people for LaTeX source when I want to read something 
> >>> > they've produced if I happen to know that they used LaTeX to 
> >>> > produce it, and they're always more than happy to provide it. 
> >>> > I've even had tutors and other instructors help me with math 
> >>> > questions by looking at my LaTeX. Those that know it already 
> >>> > have no trouble, and those that have never seen it say that it's 
> >>> > clear enough they can almost always tell what it is I'm trying 
> >>> > to do as far as the math goes. In the event that they can't, I 
> >>> > can always generate a pdf.
> >>> >
> >>> > As for LaTeX being hard to read because of macros or what ever 
> >>> > else, I've found that in at least 90% of cases that's not a 
> >>> > problem. Almost everyone I know uses the amsmath and/or the 
> >>> > amssym packages, and the macros that do appear don't detract 
> >>> > from the readability of the material itself.
> >>> > --
> >>> > "All models are wrong, but some are useful." George E. P. Box 
> >>> > Joseph C. Lininger, <jbahm at pcdesk.net>
> >>
> >>
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> >
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