[Blindmath] mathplayer, jaws, and math in graphics?

Wed Apr 6 17:54:55 UTC 2011

"and instead accept other people's oppinions "
Oh, so only other people's opinions matter here?
doublestadnards, I wouldn't expect any less than that from a coward.
"we'd all appreciate it "

So you now speak on everyone's behalf?
Well, let us put this to test.
Let's have a virtual showup of hands
who wants me to stay
who wants me to go?
I've been on this list for nearly 7 years, if not longer. During my 
time here I have done all within my means to help people, however, I 
won't hesitate to leave this list if that is the wish of the majority 
as this pondlife seem to be implying.

At 18:06 06/04/2011, you wrote:
>If you would please refrain from wasting our time by ranting like a
>lunatic and instead accept other people's oppinions as being viable I
>think we'd all appreciate it Paul.
>
>On 4/6/11, PR Stanley <prstanley at ntlworld.com> wrote:
> > Funny, when I asked for his help last time a certain list member
> > sought to deliberately blacken my name on this list, I didn't' even
> > get a reply to my email. Now he is lecturing us on list protocol.
> > I get it in the neck for helping the blind community, for simply
> > trying to share with them ideas that have helped me gain some level
> > of independence.. I see it as a sort of moral duty.
> > unfortunately, It seems some members of the blind community are more
> > than happy being exploited and treated like fools. Oh yes, they talk
> > about independence and all that rot, but when they're offered the
> > choice, they reject it violently and run back to their slave masters.
> > They seem only to accept help when it comes with a price tag attached
> > to it. When the same help is offered to them for free they treat it
> > with utmost suspicion.
> > I am no psychologist but I wonder if this could have something to do
> > with disabled people being treated like second class citizens since
> > time immemorial.
> > Well, don't use LaTeX then. Far too many punctuation marks and
> > strangely named macros, far too complicated for blind people. your
> > time would be much more fruitfully spent jumping up and down and
> > shouting yourself horse about the injustice of not having a system
> > simple enough for the blind.
> > Paul
> > At 02:11 06/04/2011, you wrote:
> >>Hello everybody:
> >>
> >>I am not a mathematician -- just the lowly list owner.  There has
> >>been some back and forth here, healthy discussion is, of course
> >>fine.  However, some has seemed a bit more heated then that.
> >>
> >>I would remind people of a couple things, first we all have
> >>different styles, preferences, etc., so what appeals to you, or
> >>makes sense to you may not be so for somebody else.  Some people's
> >>positions come across as absolute, and that there is just one way to
> >>do things.  Remember, this is true for you, but may not be so for
> >>everybody else.
> >>
> >>It is good that we have options and each of us must pick what works
> >>best for him/herself.
> >>
> >>David Andrews, List Owner
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>At 07:48 PM 4/5/2011, you wrote:
> >>>    I feel that Andrew's comments have been interpreted very poorly by
> >>>members of this list.  Firstly, consider that he is on this list, as
> >>>all of us are, to increase the use and readability of math for the
> >>>blind.  I'm certain that he would not be doing what he can to benefit
> >>>the movement from the perspective that blind people are lesser and
> >>>should sit and do what they're told.  Such comments are not only rude,
> >>>but entirely unhelpful.
> >>>    In a well reasoned and well worded argument, it was pointed out
> >>>that LaTeX is simply inefficient to read.  It is.  With a screen
> >>>reader the barrage of punctuation is difficult to sort out and in
> >>>braille there's often an expantion of symbols into words for
> >>>punctuation marks which only increases the size of the math needing to
> >>>be represented.  There are more efficient ways that are a good deal
> >>>more intuitive to people.  Pointing that out is both sensable and a
> >>>call for the blind to demand more.  It should not be the case where we
> >>>accept what the sighted would not when it prevents a large portion of
> >>>our community from accessing math simply.  As a college student
> >>>learning mathematics it is not pleasurable or even possible in some
> >>>cases to add learning LaTeX to a scholastic course load.
> >>>    Just because something is possible does not mean it is efficient
> >>>and if there are better ways for your average blind individual to read
> >>>math we need to explore them  rather than attacking those who make
> >>>such valid points.
> >>>
> >>>Sincerely,
> >>>    Ryan Thomas
> >>>
> >>>On 4/4/11, Joseph C. Lininger <jbahm at pcdesk.net> wrote:
> >>> > I agree with Paul 100% on this one. I use LaTeX for pretty much
> >>> > everything now. Class notes, homework and exams, professional papers
> >>> > and
> >>> > other writings, etc. I even use it when working math problems to keep
> >>> > track of what I'm doing. I present material in hard and/or soft copy by
> >>> > converting to pdf and/or providing LaTeX source depending on the
> >>> > preference of the group or individual, and they're always perfectly
> >>> > happy with the results. I ask people for LaTeX source when I want to
> >>> > read something they've produced if I happen to know that they used
> >>> > LaTeX
> >>> > to produce it, and they're always more than happy to provide it. I've
> >>> > even had tutors and other instructors help me with math questions by
> >>> > looking at my LaTeX. Those that know it already have no trouble, and
> >>> > those that have never seen it say that it's clear enough they can
> >>> > almost
> >>> > always tell what it is I'm trying to do as far as the math goes. In the
> >>> > event that they can't, I can always generate a pdf.
> >>> >
> >>> > As for LaTeX being hard to read because of macros or what ever else,
> >>> > I've found that in at least 90% of cases that's not a problem. Almost
> >>> > everyone I know uses the amsmath and/or the amssym packages, and the
> >>> > macros that do appear don't detract from the readability of the
> >>> > material
> >>> > itself.
> >>> > --
> >>> > "All models are wrong, but some are useful." George E. P. Box
> >>> > Joseph C. Lininger, <jbahm at pcdesk.net>
> >>
> >>
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> >
> >
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