[Blindmath] UEB again (was Braille code urgency)

Michael Whapples mwhapples at aim.com
Sun Dec 4 21:24:12 UTC 2011 

Hello,
Firstly I will say that the sort of comments which really get me are those like: The use of a number sign makes Braille unworkable for anything but the simplest of maths. I simply cannot buy such an argument and so normally only throw away such views as I have used BAUK for all my Braille and have found it perfectly workable throughout my physics degree (proving to me that the argument must be false). I also will not make any argument against Nemeth Braille or such like as I know little of it and so feel unqualified to argue such a case, however I will defend systems such as BAUK as I know those well and have experience in using them. If people could show me the limitations of it and I am unable to give any reasoning to show that it is a limitation or such like then I would certainly be prepared to look at what else there is, however nobody has yet provided such an example.

Now to some specific points, John's example of a hex number. This is probably where I become an interesting case, when working on the computer I tend to have the Braille display set to American computer Braille (what BrlTTY terms NABCC). I think there are multiple reasons for this, one being that when I am doing things like programming or dealing with LaTeX then source code normally only has ASCII or an extended ASCII set (eg. latin1) characters and so can all be shown in the 8-dot cell of a Braille display. Probably the one big advantage of this is that the one for one mapping of characters means that I will maintain the formatting used by whoever wrote the source code and so things will be aligned correctly. Also things like cursor routing just feels more natural when each cell relates to something where the cursor can be placed. having said all that, I still don't know that the reason I chose to use my computer Braille display like that is to do with it being easier to read/process numbers in that notation than the BAUK style (I don't think BAUK with number signs is harder) with number signs. My justification for such a feeling is that I actually really hate the Braille support of the Mac, because of the way the voiceover cursor works normally you loose the character formatting (eg. you don't have distinct lines when looking at code examples on the internet) and I still have the Mac set to the American Braille code. Processing number signs is probably one of those things that once you get used to it, you do it so automatically you probably never realise you are doing any processing.

As a slight side note, in John's example I have never really fully understood the need for those dot-56 cells as well as the dot-6 capital sign, its hardly like you have capital numbers, there for the capital must mean capital letter. Logically thinking it through, what I said there reduces the size (possibly important for reading speed as there are less cells to read) with no increased complexity.

Michael Whapples
On 4 Dec 2011, at 19:57, John Gardner wrote:

> Hello Sina.  I'm not venting.  I am just pointing out that there is very
> little quality research on literary braille usage, much less on something
> that only a few percent of braille readers seem to be concerned about.  But
> it doesn't take research for anybody to understand that reading something
> like
> #d;,a#b;,d is a cognitively larger load than reading a hex number as 4A2D.
> Nor does it take research to know that having well-defined number symbols is
> necessary to be able to represent computer braille and that it will surely
> make math braille easier to code/read.  I do not deny that a great deal of
> research is needed to identify the very best unified braille code.  But I
> claim that a group of unselfish braille-using scientists could come up with
> a good one.  UEBC ain't that.
> 
> John
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sina Bahram [mailto:sbahram at nc.rr.com] 
> Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2011 9:26 AM
> To: john.gardner at orst.edu; 'Blind Math list for those interested in
> mathematics'
> Subject: RE: [Blindmath] UEB again (was Braille code urgency)
> 
> John, I'm going to assume you're either A. speaking tongue and cheak, or B.
> just venting/frustrated about the situation, since my
> email was quite serious, and sincere.
> 
> 
> Website: www.SinaBahram.com
> Twitter: @SinaBahram
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of John Gardner
> Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2011 11:51 AM
> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] UEB again (was Braille code urgency)
> 
> Sina, please do be serius.  There are not even any fully reliable studies
> comparing the effectiveness of contracted vs non-contracted braille.  But
> there are plenty of people who will assure you that contracted braille is
> much more efficient.  What evidence there is points to the opposite
> conclusion.  The NFB has been making noises about studying this question but
> thus far has not.  
> 
> There was an attempt early in the 20'th century to develop a uniform math
> code, but representatives used it as a platform to proclaim that their
> particular math code was the best and should be adopted.  Reminds me of the
> UEBC in some ways. 
> 
> Even if there was a fully reliable study of such braille questions, I doubt
> that everybody would happily follow the recommendations.
> 
> John
> 
> 
> John
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Sina Bahram
> Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2011 8:10 AM
> To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] UEB again (was Braille code urgency)
> 
> I also don't understand why the problem has to be trivialized into
> complaints such as the letters of the alphabet can't represent
> numbers. Is there research about the cognitive load on users of Nemeth, for
> example, versus another code? Are there cognitive models
> built which are based upon actual perceptual psychology, store/recall, or
> other experimentally validated data that support such a
> claim?
> 
> A real mathematician, I feel, would balk at signing a petition when so many
> general claims exist. As a researcher, I find myself
> asking, where's the how/why of it? where's the science to back up one over
> the other? Where's the actual research that shows how a
> system for mathematics should be designed based on first principles instead
> of on anecdotal common wisdom?
> 
> Take care,
> Sina
> 
> Website: www.SinaBahram.com
> Twitter: @SinaBahram
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Steve Jacobson
> Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2011 2:27 AM
> To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] UEB again (was Braille code urgency)
> 
> I think many of us realize that something has to change, even if we're not
> sure which route should be followed.  Blind 
> kids will have no way to deal with many of the texts in education if we cant
> bring more of the variations of print to 
> braille.  They will get the extra information with screen readers instead
> even if it is less effective.  This isn't a simple 
> issue and the future path isn't clear, but just clinging to the past won't
> work, either.  Send opinions to BANA if you 
> have obvious solutions, but the world is changing, print is changing, and we
> have to find a way for braille to change in 
> an organized and reasonable way.  I'm not saying I know which code is best
> because I truly don't know, but we have 
> to take this on as a challenge to our ingenuity and not just kick and scream
> and wish that the world stopped changing 
> in 1960.  
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Steve Jacobson
> 
> On Sat, 3 Dec 2011 15:53:35 -0500, Susan Mooney wrote:
> 
>> I don't understand why the consumers don't revolt and put their feet firmly
>> down.  Where's the rally from the braille readers themselves?
> 
>> SM
> 
>> On Sat, Dec 3, 2011 at 3:39 PM, Susan Jolly <easjolly at ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> 
>>> Those of us who oppose the UEB have tried many tactics and written many
>>> words explaining its problems. None of these have worked.
>>> 
>>> I'm wondering if the best tactic is to enlist sighted mathematicians and
>>> math teachers to create some sort of manifesto.  One need know nothing
>>> about Braille or tactile reading to clearly state that one cannot
>>> effectively either understand or do mathematics with a writing system
> that
>>> uses same characters for the decimal digits as for certain letters of the
>>> alphabet.  Adoption of the UEB would mean assuming that Braille users
> have
>>> no need to understand mathematics.
>>> 
>>> Sincerely,
>>> Susan Jolly
>>> 
>>> Sent from my wonderful iPad
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> 
> 
> 
>> -- 
>> Experience is a brutal teacher, but you learn. My God, do you learn. --CS
>> Lewis
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