[Blindmath] What does "support braille math in a screenreader" mean technically?

Mon Feb 21 20:48:49 UTC 2011

I was careful to word it that I was not proposing a sound/speech option 
only, it was just an example where work has been done and came to mind 
very quickly. Other examples probably do exist and others could be created.

My main point is: When asking for better access to math content on a 
computer, why limit yourself to a format which is constrained by what 
can be done with paper?

Think of it this way, dotsplus realises that tactile writing need not be 
constrained to a Braille cell, computers need not be restricted to a 
static, linear form.

Michael Whapples
On -10/01/37 20:59, qubit wrote:
> Hi Mike --
> I want to remind those not directly affected, but many of the users of
> braille displays are deaf-blind and therefore can't hear sound.  For this
> reason I think that the goal needs to be something that could, at least
> optionally, be completely tactile.
> This doesn't mean no work should be directed toward representations in
> sound, just that a completely tactile system should always be an
> alternative.
> Just a thought.
> --le
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Whapples"<mwhapples at aim.com>
> To: "Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics"
> <blindmath at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2011 3:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [Blindmath] What does "support braille math in a screenreader"
> mean technically?
>
>
> Hello,
> Susan, your first comment is something I have been thinking about for
> some time, Braille translation, particularly for maths, up to now has
> really not been perfected in quite a number of years of people working
> at it. Therefore, is the call simply for Braille support a "dead end",
> will it ever be perfected?
>
> There probably is a place for Braille, but I am more thinking of when
> using a screen reader where interaction with the computer is possible
> then might there be better, more interactive ways of accessing the
> maths? Also might more interactive ways of exploring the maths be a
> simpler problem to solve?
>
> While I haven't got a full idea together yet for what this more
> interactive reading would be, knowing how people process equations would
> be useful (any links), here are some thoughts which may help understand
> what I mean.
>
> MathPlayer, while being good in accessing the mathml, I think we can all
> agree really does not use the computer to its full to give the best user
> experience (some of the limitations are external to design science and
> there is nothing which they can do without help from other companies).
> One area where MathPlayer is weak, is easy navigation of the equation,
> currently you must wade through the words of what the equation is. There
> may be times where you don't need fine details of the equation but the
> general form of the equation. May be parts of the equation could be
> presented to the user in a more concise form (an example might be the
> systm shown in the presentation "Spoken Mathematics Using Prosody:
> Earcons and Spearcons" as presented at ICCHP 2010). May be certain
> elements (eg. fractions) could be container objects (like voiceover on
> the Mac handling tables, or NVDA's object navigation), so you can either
> skip over the fraction should it be of little interest at that time but
> should you need more detail then you could descend into the fraction to
> look at detail.
>
> Also by using a computer there might be a more natural way of
> communicating the mathematics (speech is one example) and so it probably
> will be relevant to more people, therefore it would have a higher value
> to the screen reader vendors, so having a greater chance of being
> implemented.
>
> Michael Whapples
> On -10/01/37 20:59, Susan Jolly wrote:
>> Despite the Nemeth code having been a US standard for something like
>> 40 years, there is no transcribing software that can currently convert
>> print math fully accurately to Nemeth.  (By print math I mean
>> electronic math represented as either LaTeX or presentation MathML.)
>> This problem persists despite there having been a significant amount
>> of work addressing this issue. The same is true for other math codes
>> but since I know more details about Nemeth I will stick mainly to that
>> code here. So it seems to me that it is more than a bit unlikely that
>> screenreader developers would have the resources to accomplish
>> something that many others have not succeeded at.
>>
>> I know there is currently a French project attempting to put support
>> for several math codes, including Nemeth, into OpenOffice.  I don't
>> know how that is progressing.
>>
>> Please remember that the Nemeth code is a complete code; it has rules
>> for both text and math.  The rules for text are quite similar to the
>> rules for EBAE (English Braille American Edition) but have minor
>> changes as necessary for compatibility with the representation of
>> math.  The reason this fact is significant to this discussion is that
>> it is my understanding that screenreaders or display drivers that
>> convert to braille text in real time use the EBAE rules for text, not
>> the Nemeth rules.
>>
>> Officially here in the US, materials transcribed according to the
>> Nemeth code must consistently follow all the rules of that code.
>> However, my guess is that many Nemeth readers would be quite happy if
>> the text portions of an HTML document were to be transcribed according
>> to EBAE while MathML islands were transcribed  according to the Nemeth
>> rules for math.  I just noticed that the latest version of DBT
>> (Duxbury's software) has something similar in that it allows for
>> Nemeth math to be used with various non-English choices for text.
>>
>> There are others on this list who understand the details of MathType
>> and of screenreaders so this next may be a bit simplistic.  But it
>> seems to me that the minimum you'd want is for a screenreader to
>> simply recognize MathML islands and to at least have the capability to
>> pass their contents through a user-supplied filter on the way to the
>> display.
>>
>> Finally let me point out that there are some serious formatting issues
>> to be addressed when targetting braille math to a braille display. I'm
>> referring to both simple issues such as where to break a line and more
>> complex issues involving planar layouts.
>>
>> I'm hoping for feedback here.
>>
>> SusanJ
>>
>>
>>
>
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